The Paradox of Tolerance: should intolerance be tolerated?

Modern identity politics is a vast step beyond the “people banding together to promote their shared interests,” It’s micro-compartmentalization and upfront confrontational behavior to an extent that undermines shared humanity. Even some of the people responsible for that school of thought like Kimberle Crenshaw realized they’d overstepped decades ago.

I don’t see the identity-based strategies as having been overall helpful in accomplishing the laudable progress by the left in the last decades. Had interest groups spent less energy playing intersectional games to discredit and alienate their own would-be allies, either through their own behavior or with the help of staggeringly effective identity wedge strategies from the Carl Roves and Lynton Crosbys of the world, they likely would have been overall more effective.

Circle jerking and purity tests isn’t hard work of activism, it just feels good.

Ed: I’m not going to post the same reply twice, but this also addresses CarlMud’s most recent.

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Citation, please

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Mapping the Margins is a whole treatise on trying to balance the power of shared identity with the risks of dilution and marginalization.
It is a little weird because it’s all interpreted through the intersectionality looking-glass, but it’s from before that whole subfield became criticism-proof.

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Yep, that’s totally the reason. Okay.

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Thanks for the article, but where in it does Crenshaw say that she’d earlier “overstepped”? Seems to me that she’s instead saying this article builds on an earlier one, and that it too promotes a form of “identity politics.”

You’ve been railing here against some sort of “modern identity politics,” and pissing off a lot of BBSers in the process. I think that might be happening because you’ve been so abstract in this thread.

If you know and applaud people who fight on the LGBT front, those people are also practicing “identity politics,” so you obviously don’t mind that kind. What other form of identity politics is it that you’re against, and how is it actually practiced?

In your view, who currently (as opposed to 1991, when Crenshaw’s piece was published) are these nefarious, “circle-jerking” proponents of identity that you so despise? What forms does this type of identity politics that you’re blasting away against actually take?

What do you think is wrong with taking an intersectional approach?

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Handling

What do you think is wrong with taking an intersectional approach?

first because it answers most of the other questions.
In itself, nothing, it’s a useful model that good things have been accomplished with.
One problem is that when in use it tends to be treated as the model, to the exclusion of any other concerns or practical realities, in much the same way that Marxism is a great lens that you can’t use all the time.
The bigger problem, IMO, is the slow drift as it has seeped from theory to popular activism from the original “don’t shit on people with shared interests by imagining they are exactly like you in all ways” formulation, which I am entirely behind, to the almost-opposite oppression-olympics exaggerated focus on differences as arbiters of legitimacy, which is good for no one. The weaponization by people who realize they can use oppression-olympics/the most intolerant win style tactics to get their way in shared spaces, while steamrolling other interests is especially alarming.
And finally the already-mentioned criticism-proof problem (Another quillette link because they have been on a roll publishing pieces in this area lately. Take this one with a grain of salt because the author has what must be simultaneously regarded as first-hand experience and an axe to grind). That middle concern is the place where I’m drawing a distinction that I clearly didn’t adequately communicate.

The overstepping was the acknowledgement that ideas she had promoted lead to structures for community and activism built in ways that could not accommodate internal or external conflict, especially of motivation. Internal in the idea that the feminist structures were all built to serve very specific identities (‘white feminists’, ‘black feminists’ - though I’m always frustrated that she treats the same behaviors by black feminist groups as reaction rather than repetition) without the flexibility to coordinate with, much less include others. Externally in the Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill situation (which has been a rather relevant case study again recently), where it becomes clear that if you build a worldview out of charged oppressions and elevated subjective experience, there is no way of negotiating competing constraints. Most analyses I’ve read treats that piece, as you say, as building on an earlier one to clarify that her earlier (foundational) writings on intersectionality were hoping to address these problems, not to exacerbate them.

I think I did come in too strong, I usually talk in this area with folks with more shared context, stuck my head in, and had a ‘someone on the internet is wrong’ reaction. I’m coming from a place of frustrated-idealism, not hostility.

The thing I find most alarming is the modern social-media-enabled development of politics by “Here is my list of demographic features, it’s all you need to know about me because I’ve internalized the demographics-as-destiny mindset I claim to fight, if you don’t adequately cowtow to each and every one of them you’re a monster with whom I can’t coexist, much less cooperate on our shared interests.”

I’m intentionally picking the very most exaggerated case, but the whole evergreen state situation is a truly absurd display of identity politics run amok. The three-point basis of that article is a good way of distinguishing solidarity and insanity.

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Uh yeah, a conservative axe, just like other writers at what’s been identified as a “a hub for reactionary thought.” In fact, with so many links now to quillette in your comments, I’m starting to wonder if your whole point here is to shill for it.

And how would you define that idealism in terms of the political spectrum? (I myself, for instance, usually identify as left of liberal.) You’re coming across more and more as a conservative who wishes disenfranchised people would just stop pushing already for equality.

There you go, nutpicking again. You should look that term up sometime. You focus on the supposed problem of left-oriented activists “taking control” over universities, ignoring completely the ongoing conservative takeover of universities.

Dude, people fighting for equality on the basis of their oppressed identities just isn’t the big bad problem that you and your fellow conservative keyboard warriors want everyone else to think it is. And good luck trying to convince anyone here that the real problem is uppity people who don’t identify as straight middle class white guys.

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That is not necessarily the case. Like so many other ways of life, LGBT functions as a social movement, and in no way requires any kind of personal identity, despite the popularity of framing it that way. That’s the distinction between what we do, versus who we are. The former is a process/function-based perspective, while the latter is an identity-based perspective.

Consider, for instance, with regards to civil rights in fighting against bigotry. Generally, bigots don’t hate a group based upon what it actually is to be black, or gay - because they don’t know. They hate the group based upon what it represents in their own reasoning/ideology. Likewise, how such things as ethnicity and orientation benefit me are how they function, not that I get to call myself by some label.

As for intersectionality, I think that is almost always A Good Thing, except that most don’t take it far enough.

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This strikes me as the sort of problem that people have thought about before.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/toleration/

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This is the kind of statement that I think inadvertently supports racist ideologies. I can just turn this statement around. You imply that I am trying to make everyone else see things my way, but you are just as much trying to make me see things your way by telling me what society is and is not.

Also, the implication of this statement nonsense. Obviously society is about people agreeing on values. Society is not going to accept all values as equal or interchangeable. We’re pretty sure about murder, and we have been for a long time.

If you are suggesting I should stop presenting my own point of view because that’s trying to get other people to “capitulate” then that’s you hoping to silence me, not me trying to silence you.

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Not shilling (and seeing as this account is years older than that site, it would be some serious commitment), I’ve just enjoyed a couple of their related pieces recently, in part because they are acting as a platform for disclosed-bias experts to publish editorials, like Medium with an editor and some disclosure. I agree it’s definitely not a place to read uncritically.

I’m somewhere over near left-libertarian. I can’t get on-board with the Chomsky-style Anarcho Syndicalism type ideas because I don’t think they provide an adequate bulwark against ambitious sociopaths building themselves unaccountable concentrations of power.

I’m saying that preempting shared humanity is not a good way to push for equality.
The modern ‘social’ web means we are now not only coming into contact with people with different values than our own, but we’re being exposed to the specifics of those differences, and the more identity-rooted we get the more we project those differences upfront. In meatspace, or in the older pre-social, small, separate identity internet, you could interact with someone for years and not know their opinions on X, and if you did learn you deeply disagreed about X, your shared humanity and identity are already asserted. If you’re on facebook and lead with your bullet-point demographic identity, there is no opportunity to develop commonality, because everyone is doing their best to other themselves.

Recall the ‘college town’ note, I’m well aware of the Right’s efforts to shit on the whole education system. That Salon article is picking the collapse of public funding out from several similar-scale contributing factors like administrative bloat and (more interestingly) changes to student loan rules which extremely laudably dramatically expanded access to college… and came with severe detrimental side-effects, including massive opportunities for exploitation and grifting by established interests while trying to do something good.

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We’re right at the the argument I was trying to make, and why this is all relevant the the article.

I don’t think it makes any sense to try to operate as though everyone we interact with shares our exact value system, or ever will. The interesting problem is of building rules and norms and modes of civilized negotiation across people who don’t share a value system (ed: or at least don’t prioritize their values in the same way), which is the same problem Mapping the Margins was discussing a small case of. The adversarial identity-rooted model is still getting in the way of that 25 years later.

You are absolutely allowed to argue your point, but you are arguing for people to change values and motivations instead of behaviors, which is much, much less likely to accomplish anything of worth.

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As a far-leftist who is on board with Chomsky-style Anarcho Syndicalism, I think that masses are large conditioned by the types of institutions they inhabit. The old institutions of corporate capitalism create and encourage that kind of sociopathy because it’s what they exploit. In near-future polystates, those who still adhere to non-egalitarian societal forms will have more incentive to compete amongst themselves. Each person can decide for themselves which type of local government - if any - they choose to ally themselves with.

Totalitarianism is itself intolerant, and not a viable path to long-term stability/homeostasis.

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How would saying that I’ve been oppressed on the basis of certain social categories, and also fighting back in those terms, strike you as “adversarial” in a bad way? It sounds adversarial in a good way to me.

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We’re way, way off topic, but it’s your last point that knocks me off. I think there are too many, too effective forms of coercion and obligate interdependence for that degree of free-association to actually be free, even in an idealized legacy-free environment.

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This thread looped back to my original point as well: It’s the “fight back on those terms” that I have a problem with. That’s a demand that everyone else engage you inside your value system and perspective, while taking on no responsibility to engage theirs, which simply does not work, to communicate much less convince, in a large diverse population.

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Much less likely to accomplish anything of worth than what? Than having a philosophical debate about modes of civilized negotiation?

But if we’re going to talk about people trying to impose their frameworks on one another, how about the thing where you are trying to impose your framework on me and others: You are assuming the point of posting in a forum is to convince you of something. I know I’m not going to convince anyone of anything, you aren’t either (thought feel free to prove me wrong by convincing me of something).

I don’t see any evidence that you are an expert in how to convince people of things. If you know what works and what doesn’t work when it comes to convincing other people of things, why not put that into practice and convince people in this thread of something?

You imply that people who fight for their own rights or for human rights in general are less likely to be willing to listen to a variety of different perspectives and values systems. You’ve got this backwards. The only value that they aren’t willing to work with is the value that some people shouldn’t be listened to, shouldn’t have rights, or shouldn’t exist. They are far less likely to impose their values on others than the average person.

I think you are arguing for the status quo without realizing it. Replacing language that recognized individual identities with colour-blind and gender-blind language is the spirit of our times. We’re seeing a surge of people recognizing individual identities now because it doesn’t work. Under the identity-blind framework policies continued to be racist, just without using racial language. Mass incarceration for drug crimes targets racial minorities; voter id laws target racial minorities; promotion policies based on being willing to put in extra hours (despite this not being connected to productivity) mean women get paid less. Our policies still disadvantage those that were previously disadvantaged, we just found a way to talk about them that doesn’t mention the people targeted by them.

And it’s all based on a fundamentally intolerant idea. White men can’t talk about blackness or femininity very well because they are afraid that someone will get angry at them for doing so. Rather than saying, “Okay, I guess I’ll let someone else talk then” they say, “I guess no one should talk about it.” People need to learn to tolerate other people’s identities, and that means listening to them talk about their identities without feeling attacked.

An “identity” framework hasn’t failed. It created the progress of the civil rights movement. The move away from it in the 1980s failed.

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Making an example: If A engages in the concensus behavior because they believe it to be proper on humanistic grunds, B engages in the concensus behavior because they have rule-based morality and respect the consensus, and C engages in the concensus behavior because their interpretation of their religion tells them to, you have a functioning diverse society. There are some odd edge cases when one party’s region of tolerence only barely overlaps the region of concensus (Most Intolerent Wins), but we can mostly live with those.

The hard problems are when there isn’t a region of consensus (either because of small-but-vocal group of holdouts or N large non-overlapping groups, which probably require different methods), and the stupid problems are when parties insist on arguing motivations instead of behaviors so even though they do have a region of consensus, they can’t get there (If A and C are unwilling to apply some theory-of-mind, they aren’t going to arrive at a region of consensus, because they aren’t going to get there the same way).

I do actually mostly agree with your part about the risk of arguing for the status quo, but I’m yet to see anyone proposing an alternative to uniform rules and negotiation around cultural baggage that doesn’t just shift around who gets to impose their values for local advantage, and always to a group that happens to include the speaker.

Then there’s your last paragraph where you are fearlessly telling me about white men, because it’s OK for you to judge your (partially incorrect, but since I’m arguing against identity-as-legitimacy I’m not about to invoke it) image of me on your value system, but it’s not OK for me to judge you on mine.

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No, bigotry is hardly ever actually about what the contents of the oppressed categories actually are, it is merely an excuse for exploitation, for consolidating power. And that same process works regardless of who is effected, because it is a flawed system, a flawed method. Somebody gets hurt no matter who today’s enemy is seen to be.

The problem is not that individuals or individualism are “bad”, it’s that people, organisms, humans are not in fact individual. It is an ancient ideal which I can empathize with, but not accept uncritically as a fundamental assumption. Nor should anyone need to in order to plan or fix societies.

Exploiting identities and respecting identities are both based upon selfish feelings of personal entitlement, and both rooted in the lazy practice of identification in the first place, a short-cut to thinking, a stereotype. This need not make either side’s proponents intolerant of collectivism, but in practice it seems to occur.

Trying to argue this with an entrenched liberal misses the mark in a way very much analogous to arguing against ownership with a propertarian. They cannot for the life of them fathom the notion that something is not, can not, be owned by anybody. So what they hear is that if you deny their ownership is because YOU are claiming it, no matter how you try to explain, because that “relationship” is fundamental to their world view, and not likely to be examined.

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What you are describing sounds like pretty much what I do here.

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