The real meaning of plantation tours: American Downton Abbey vs American Horror Story

Not sure what this even means.

While the Downton Abbey show was certainly a rose colored picture of the aristocracy (or at least the Granthams) it certainly didn’t shy away from going deep into the terrible norms of the time and having story arcs about racism, sexism, homophobia, mental illness, horrors of war, drug addiction, classism, and so on. Also many of the characters experienced growth beyond regressive ideologies to fit with the changing times.

(Also the staff at Downton were paid employees and treated pretty well.)

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The people my parents employed over the years were single and without kids which simplified things. But it wasn’t uncommon for some ladies who did have families to be in that line of work, as far as i know in those cases they treated the circumstance as a normal job. They’d show up somewhere, clean for the day, leave some cooking done behind and go home to their family.

I don’t think it’s a perfect system, there’s not enough protections for people in that line of work. I’ve read of many instances in various countries where some of these girls get treated quite badly, even here in the US.

Sorry, but just because you grew up with an unpaid maid at home, this just makes you biased in favor of something that shouldn’t exist. She’s not “part of the family” (I have saw so much abuse against women using exactly these same words!), the moment she gets pregnant this is revoked in turbo time! The moment a guy in the family takes a fancy to her (the husband or the son) it becomes clear very fast that those words don’t mean anything. And when she gets old, people have zero qualms in getting rid of her.

A woman isn’t a dog to be left behind by her supposed “family” when things get hard. No one would leave a daughter behind - this is lip service to assuage the guilt.

I’m not calling you out, ok? You were born and raised inside something problematic, it’s hard to see what’s wrong without hearing the voices of the black women that experienced this.

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I didn’t say she was unpaid though i should’ve specified. She was paid, and as far as i recall my parents also covered her healthcare :slight_smile:

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JFC.

Slaves were made to grow the food for themselves and the slaver, build the houses for themselves and the slaver, and did some of the guarding of other slaves.

That’s not a damn external cost. Slaves were forced to provide that value out of their own blood and bone. Don’t give any slaver the credit for “providing” it.

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Fair point.

Also: they were prohibited to eat the same food. If I recall correctly you at the USA have some weird stereotype about black people and watermelon, here in Brazil there’s a tale that was told to the enslaved that if you ate mango and drank milk you would die. Because mango was cheap and available and milk was for sale or for white people. As a kid in the 70s there was still a dare between children to see who would risk doing it.

In God Has a Dream, Desmond Tutu wrote about the end of apartheid and the truth and reconciliation commission in South Africa. In particular how it was that white people could learn to stop hating black people. Tutu’s comment was that pretty nearly every white person in South Africa had a black nanny - that they all loved a black person before they were taught to hate them - and so the hate was unsustainable in the long run.

That story really stuck with me. I think it helps to illuminate the internal contradictions of living in bigoted society. Also it paints a hell of a picture of Tutu.

(And now, saying nice things about a famous man, I’m reflexively worrying that I’m about to find out Tutu sexually harassed a bunch of people. But my google search for “Desmond Tutu allegations” doesn’t turn up anything.)

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A good sinházinha is still a sinházinha.

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I can see that view point and agree to an extent that love goes a long way to helping heal these fissures, but it’s still a subservient relationship. They might have loved their nanny, but they also learned quite early that the needs of that nanny was entirely secondary to their own. People are also great at being able to square their love of individuals with hatred of a group of people. Hell, people can even love someone and still abuse the hell out of them… Internal contradictions indeed!

Love needs to be accompanied by some kind of change in understanding of race, to one where it’s seen as biological to one that’s seen as socially constructed. Weirdly, we kind of have, because racists will often use culture as a way to explain their believe in segregation. We all know that it’s a stand in for biological race, but it’s a small shift that shows that larger shifts can happen.

And yes, Desmond Tutu is an amazing human being.

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I’m not certain about food prohibitions, but they were not given choice foods. Ironically, this has led to some fantastic dishes. American style barbecue deserves particular mention. Slaves were given the leftover tough cuts of meat. They may not have invented barbecue, but they certainly made it awesomer!

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Look at the 20th century. A large part of the Nazi German industry during WWII was powered by slave labor. Concentration camps like Dachau had lots of satellite camps, where the slaves were sent to work. Even then, the factories were hardly profitable, as the slaves used every opportunity they could to sabotage, or to underperform, or commit suicide by industrial accident. I don’t have the numbers with me, but it is suggested that using slaves to fill the jobs that the men conscripted into the Wehrmacht used to do did more harm than good.

Slave work has always been about forcing people to do work that no one else wants to do, really. And the nature of factory work (let alone a job like programming) means the factory owner will not trust anyone there who does not want to do the job. So there is that.

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Oskar Schindler:
Stern, if this factory ever produces a shell that can actually be fired, I’ll be very unhappy.

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New allegations arise that Desmond Tutu…is awesome!

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Yes! Brazil’s most famous dish, feijoada, exists exactly because of this.

And most interesting, because of the continental scale, different states developed different cuisine so there’s a lot of variety and cross-pollination in food.

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Just to pull back some of the links from up thread.

You can also check the video @Grey_Devil linked where Witty discusses a lot of the context around how BBQ worked.

This claim, and claims like it come out of a lot of misunderstanding about how food worked in the past. And are mostly drawn from just so stories about Southern food that portray everything as derived from happy slaves or the results of Gone With the Wind fictional Antebellum culture.

Meat was not handled this way at the time, outside of cities and especially meat packing areas animals were not cut into individual cuts and distributed. Particularly in the hot South, meat either needed to be cured and smoked to preserve it, or cooked day of. And fresh meat was not available year round. Barbeque was an occasional, community activity. Where whole animals would be killed during harvest/slaughter parts of the year. And cooked whole. For special occasions like church events, weddings, or especially political campaign events whole animals would be slaughtered off season specifically for BBQ.

This was not home cooking, it was a once or twice a year sort of thing. And counter to what’s portrayed by the typical stories of Southern food. Slaves did not generally have the run of things to have happy hoedowns of their own volition, or share in the supplies of the the main house. There was a separate provision system just to provide for them. There were vastly more slaves on a plantation then there were owners and white staff. And if hogs were being raise they were being raised for sale. Where slaves were given fresh meat at all it was almost always chicken, even that was a rarity. Even tough and boney cuts when fresh were a desirable rarity, they wouldn’t be passed to slaves. They’d be eaten by the white folks.

To slaughter animals off season, or afford to buy them you’re typically talking about fairly well off people or people with good size herds. Which means slave owners. So the animals for these big community events were most often provided in some fashion by slave owners, wealthier folks, prominent people (quite often politicians!).

And that points to the real connection here. Those people also provided the service of cooking the Barbeque. And as a result the vast majority of pitmasters were black slaves, as were the servents who served it all and handled everything else.

So enslaved blacks were used to cook barbeque, for white celebrations. And this was infact a business. With owners who had talented slave cooks, selling their services (and the meat) for large scale barbeque events. Just like modern catering.

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No need to imagine.

image

American slavery never ended; it just changed form.

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Even 1.4% would have been a horribly high number. I mean, in comparison, less than one in thousand Germans actually killed Jews in death camps. And they still have the nerve to highlight these killings when they host school classes on trip, instead of the uplifting stuff that happened there, like playing violin or singing.

…in service to the wants of the German republic WHILE IMPRISONED for unjust reasons.

Uplifting? Where is your head at?

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I think you missed @NativeSpeaker’s usage of black humour, dear sir.

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