I was SO tempted by this. Would still probably be lonely, but you’d be in Italy! The food, the coffee, the public transportation to exotic locales…!
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Natchez appears still to suffer from segregation.
It’s in Mississippi, so, uh, yeah. I’m from that state. I left when I finished high school. It would take considerably more than $6,000 – like, orders of magnitude more – to make me consider going back. Choosing a tiny neoconfederate shitstain burg like Natchez instead of one of the larger, more cosmopolitan places (again, grading on a curve) would be a nonstarter even then.
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If memory serves, the house is for 1€, but you’d have to commit a certain sum for its restructuring, more than one buck certainly. The location is rather isolated, public transportation in such places is mainly by bus, and you would need a good grasp of Italian in order to get along with people and institutions (bureaucracy in Italy is… baroque).
But you’d be in Sicily! Unparalleled vistas, world-class antiquities, irresistible food, you could be quite content for decades just pootling around the island and seeing what is there to be seen.
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There is a certain romantic notion about packing up and moving someplace I’d never thought I’d live, but as a Yankee I always just expect I will be treated with disdain in the deep south.
Also: what’s with the weird “polyps” in the border there? Little bits of LA and MS poke into each other in bulbous shapes across the river. Did the river move that much?
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Right, the renovations would be more, but I don’t recall it being as high as the $150k Natchez insists you spend. And the Italian properties were really small.
But I love Sicily, and I got all around on public transportation when I lived there for a few months in ‘04. But yeah, until and likely even after learning Italian, life in the small town would be lonely.
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This is true across much of America. In the south due to the legacies of Jim Crow and then white flight, in the north, through the legacy of redlining.
Why do I have to keep reminding people we’re not all right wing bigots and that there are lovely, wonderful places here? It’s really kind of insulting to have to keep reminding people of that here.
It’s not just the south. If we keep thinking it’s just a bunch of ignorant hicks in one part of the country, we’re never going to fix the core of the problem.
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Totally true, and hope my comments didn’t come off as assuming you’re all a bunch of bigots.
I was basing my “lonely” comments on the segregation re:property and the requirement that you buy a relatively pricey home. I think you’d end up living in a neighborhood that wouldn’t (to me) feel very neighborly.
It looks like there’s some cool stuff going on in some parts of the city, though, with the community gardens and all.
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I wasn’t even a Yankee, moved there when I was two, and it was still pretty shitty. Live in a big enough town (i.e. not Natchez), don’t be primary school-aged, and you’ll be fine. In a big enough city is probably okay for kids too.
Short answer, probably even more, and that’s with a lot of US Army Corps of Engineers meddling.
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Charles Blow on reversing the Great Migration…
He cites some interesting statistics in some of the interviews he’s done about this new book, advocating for Black Americans to move back south. I think he glosses over class issues in his interviews here. I also think he could look at not just going to larger cities like Atlanta, but smaller cities like Natchez, too. But overall, he’s making a strong case not just for Black Americans, but for all of us of a more progressive bent to think seriously about political power and how we can reshape America into a more welcoming place for all of us.
It’s not you, really. This happens every. single. time. this topic comes up. If it involves the south, we get a bunch of lazy thinking based in stereotypes rather than those that have any real knowledge of the complexities of this region.
Maybe, maybe not, of course. But if they want you to buy a house at $150k+, that’s far cheaper than many major cities in the NE or outwest. That doesn’t mean it’s in many people’s price range, but they are clearly hoping to attract people who are high education and high salary, in the hope that it drives a wave of revitalization.
Here is their current mayor…
https://www.dangibsonformayor.com/
Hardly a GOP Trumpian demagogue…
The Alderman board looks relatively diverse too:
But sure. a bunch of white bigots out to get democrats.
We’re not all a bunch of dumb hicks and never have been? Some of us have been struggling to improve our communities and make them more welcoming and to deal with the legacies of racism that we all live with on a daily basis?
Wait! You did actual research! But it’s in the south! It must be a terrible place to live, filled with Bull Conner like characters! /s
Same with upstate NY or Orange county. There are more progressive places than you’re imagining, and more progressive people.
Yes, we’re all raging racists aligned with the KKK here… 
Especially in Black majority places…
It’s a Black majority city.
Here is the thing, people. If you want shit like systemic racism to change, you have to put in the time and effort - and I’m primarily talking about white progressives here. We are the ones who should be on the front likes of upending racial structures and rejecting them, because we’re the primary beneficiaries. So in addition to the strategies that Blow is advocating for, I see no reason why a similar movement among progressive minded people shouldn’t also happen. The more you are actively involved, the more you can change. I’ve seen this going on around me where I live for 2 decades now. We went from a county that was dominated by white men, and now I’m current represented almost entirely by BIPOC on the state level and on the Federal level, with the exception of Jon Ossoff (who is Jewish, and he’s the first Jewish senator from GA, a state which had at least one high profile lynching of a Jewish man in our history).
I get wanting to live in a place that reflects your values. Of course, we all want that. I used to live in the district now represented by Marjorie Taylor Greene - so TRUST ME, I understand graduating HS and getting out of that! But writing off the entire south won’t change shit on a national level. We’re going to keep ending up with the same situation we’ve had with ever increasing partisanship and the conservative party turning into a reactionary, openly racist party. They have had control over the rural south for years, which means they control entire southern states. We just showed the country that it does not have to be this way here in GA. We can flip states and we can work for the betterment of all our citizens, not just promote racism to keep everyone in line.
Given that I came from a similar place, I’m fully aware. I don’t know how long you’ve been gone, but it seems like it’s changing there.
Is it? What about Portland in the 80s, which had the exact same set of problems that Mississippi had, with white supremacists literally ruling the streets. Some of the biggest white supremacist gangs come from the west coast in fact.
Like I said, I GET it. I’m from a place like that, dripping in deep racism and other forms of bigotry. That doesn’t change until people work to change it. And I’m not saying it’s on YOU to do that. But someone has to.
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I mean, obviously there exist progressive people in Mississippi. But someone coming from literally any more populous, more educated, or more diverse place will IMMEDIATELY notice pretty drastic differences. You will hear the n-word and other slurs often, and the people saying it will not be ashamed. If you are not white and cis, you can expect harassment far more frequently than you would in, say, a proper city (of which there are none in Mississippi). Educational and professional opportunities are poorer than in other places.
There IS a nationwide problem. But pretending that some places aren’t worse than others isn’t helpful, either. Mississippi is objectively worse. I grew up there. I have family there. But it’s still true.
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It’s a Black majority city.
Many cities in Mississippi are, but that doesn’t tell the whole tale. White flight is pretty much the rule there, still, so my bet is that the demographics shift if you count what for a bigger town would be considered the metropolitan area.
Jackson is also technically a majority Black city, but it’s dominated economically by lily-white suburbs like Madison, Brandon, etc., and so unless you venture to especially integrated spaces (or explicitly majority-AA spaces) a white visitor is unlikely to notice. And Confederate flags ABOUND EVERYWHERE, even in the city proper.
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You’re not telling me anything I’m not deeply familiar with, having grown up in a similar place and left, too. But if we only focus on the south, the problem really goes unaddressed. It’s a national problem. The racism in other places is just as deep and sustained. Segregation is actually greater in the north or west than in the south and Black power is far more diluted there, too.
You fix this problem the same way the modern GOP has come to dominate the “solid south”… which is what Stacey Abrams did these past few years. It’s the only way to do it. Lazy stereotyping and assuming that nothing ever changes here certainly won’t do it.
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Maybe it’s just a marketing gimmick? People are talking about Natchez, MS. Maybe they’ll get a coffee shop or empanada food truck out of it.
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But if we only focus on the south, the problem really goes unaddressed.
This is a post about Mississippi, and about enticing people to move there.
The racism in other places is just as deep and sustained
I do not believe that you can show this to be true in any objective way.
Stacy Abrams has definitely done something important in Georgia, but Georgia is orders of magnitude more politically viable than Mississippi, largely because Atlanta is a huge city – its metro area has about twice as many people as the entire Magnolia state.
When you have a massive urban center, with all the economic and educational opportunity that creates, you get more diversity, and that additional diversity creates a virtuous cycle. Mississippi has neither, and is unlikely to GET either given its very low population and lack of real urban areas. The enormous lack of opportunity in that state is what drove pretty much everyone I was friends with in high school to leave, and the same situation exists today, three decades later.
So yeah, I’m more than ready to write the whole state off. I don’t think meaningful change can happen there, and I don’t think it’s worth my time to try. And I’d hate to think of someone moving there thinking it’s something other than it is: an overwhelmingly poor, rural state with no real prospects for meaningful change, because the wealthy whites there like it the way it is.
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I disagree. Incredibly violent white supremacist movements are national and have always been. Segregation is still higher in the north than in the south, too. Let’s not forget the often violent protests against busing that happened in the north. MLK even remarked on the violence and deep segregation in northern cities during his time organizing in Chicago. I just don’t buy the whole southern sonderweg is real, but is a means of making people in other parts of the country feel superior and to ignore the very real problems in their own back yard.
It was not always and in some places it’s still not. Let’s not forget Greene after all in GAs 14th.
It’s not automatic. It took years of work and it’s still a struggle between the GOP dominated rural parts of the states and the ATL/metro area. LIke I said, in the 20 years I’ve lived in suburbs here, we’ve gone from white dominated government to more progressive and much more diverse. I used to live in an area that was majority white and it’s no longer the case. I’m in the minority racially now. There used to be lynchings out here. It was a violently racist place and it’s not now.
You do what you need to do, but given how the south has a history of dominating American politics, I don’t think that as a country we can afford to do that.
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This is big. It is progress. And a good start.
And I object to people who either have not lived in, or who do not now live in Natchez, characterizing a place with their hot take, whether it seems somehow historically apt or not. I get it that it is unlikely that most of us on this thread are going on a field trip (in a pandemic, no less) to ground-truth the current state of affairs in Natchez [however subjectively and yes we are all human etc.].
So hey folks, take a minute whether you are a lifelong learner or not, dig deeper and seek good reliable current info from trusted news and data sources. Please: see if your reflexive first thoughts match what you can really find about the situation.
I hear you.
I see the progress in Georgia, btw, and it has well and truly been a tonic for the soul.
And this:
I had read Charles Blow’s pieces when they came out.
When I finished reading, I remember Bryan Stephenson’s words when he talked to a few old civil rights activists, one was Rosa Parks, because I sat there thinking “brave brave brave” just as I heard Stephenson say it (audio and transcript at the link):
And every now and then, Ms. Carr would call me and she’d say, Bryan, Ms. Parks is coming to town, and we’re going to get together and talk. Do you want to come over and listen? And I’d say yes, ma’am I do. And she’d say, well, what are you going to do when you get here? I said I’m going to listen. And I’d go over there, and I would. I would just listen. It would be so energizing and so empowering. And one time, I was over there listening to these women talk. And after a couple of hours, Ms. Parks turned to me, and she said now, Bryan, tell me what the Equal Justice Initiative is. Tell me what you’re trying to do. I began giving her my rap. I said, well, we’re trying to challenge injustice. We’re trying to help people who have been wrongly convicted. We’re trying to confront a bias in discrimination in the administration of criminal justice. We’re trying to end life without parole sentences for children. We’re trying to do something about the death penalty. We’re trying to reduce the prison population. We’re trying to end mass incarceration. I gave her my whole rap, and when I finished, she looked at me and she said. Mhm, mhm, mhm.
(LAUGHTER)
STEVENSON: She said that’s going to make you tired, tired, tired. And that’s when Ms. Carr leaned forward. She put her finger on my face and she said that’s why you’ve got to be brave, brave, brave. And I actually believe that the TED community needs to be more courageous. We need to find ways to embrace these challenges, these problems, the suffering because, ultimately, our humanity depends on everyone’s humanity. Each of us is more than the worst thing we’ve ever done. I think if somebody tells a lie, they’re not just a liar. I think if somebody takes something that doesn’t belong to them, they’re not just a thief. I think even if you kill someone, you’re not just a killer. And because of that, there’s this basic human dignity that must be respected by law. I also believe that in many parts of this country, that the opposite of poverty is not wealth. I actually think in too many places, the opposite of poverty is justice.
I nearly cried.
There is a principle in permaculture that talks about choosing one’s place to build/live. The way I was taught it was:
-
Find the most beautiful place, the place with the best trees, the prettiest vista, etc… AND DON’T BUILD THERE. (My teacher said that loudly for all to hear, even the people at the back, so I feel it’s important to reflect her spirit in this use of all caps.) Never build there. Protect it the way it is because human interventions will only make it less wonderful.
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Find a place that doesn’t have much to recommend it (NB: we’re talking here now about all conditions, not merely agricultural niceties like soil, rainfall, surface water sources), a place that needs help, regeneration, restoration… AND BUILD THERE. Because that is where one can and will do the most good.
What Blow and what you propose is a version of this principle.
Choose to live in a place where one can do the most good.
That work has been hard hard hard.
That work continues to be hard hard hard.
How many reading this have engaged in community work, community building, community organizing? My own experience with it is, yes Mr. Stephenson, the work is hard and yes I am tired.
Mahatma Gandhi said
“Whatever you do may seem insignificant to you, but it is most important that you do it.”
And my takeaway is that, even if I am tired, I still need to do my insignificant piece of work. The work before me. Including community work.
I have only vague ideas about the demographics of the people who post on the bOINGbOING bbs threads.
I thank all who have worked to do their parts to make where they live a better place.
I have no illusions that folks in this thread are all going to go out and volunteer tomorrow for social and/or environmental justice work, mowing an elderly neighbor’s lawn, help Habitat for Humanity put up a house, paint the outside of a needy neighbor’s house, donated to a food pantry, picked up litter for half a day by the side of a road that needed it, not even a road you live on or drive on. I have no idea how many of you reading this are speaking up at, or going to, county commissioners weekly meetings, city council meetings or whatever local government meetings (selectmen, town reps, etc.) are in your area.
Truth.
New York:
Idaho:
Minnesota:
Truth.
As a fan of the B-52s, REM, Amanda Shires and Jason Isbell, Rhiannon Giddens, the Highwomen and far too many more recording artists to mention, writing off the U.S. South is a mistake on all levels.
And you can live in a place that reflects your values in some cases by choosing what part of town you live in:
So a question for all who have managed to read this far:
what work (and it is work, rewarding even) are you up for?
what kind?
are you willing to be an ally? what would that look like? for example, in support of folks like these, nearby or otherwise:
He who says “it can’t be done” should not interrupt those of us who are doing it.
I appreciate that you are trying to tell us where the pitfalls are.
I hear you on having family left there in Mississippi.
So, seriously, thank you.
I have friends who have moved to very out-of-the-way parts of the U.S. [that are still served by the national electricity grid] to be artists, musicians, and farmers. There is a whole subset of smart, wild-eyed, hopeful, financially unstable happy mutants who have already made the jump or would consider it for a chance to pursue their unconventional goals.
Turn the clock back on Marfa, Texas, current international hotspot for art and hipsters and TV miniseries. I guarantee that 50 years ago, not a single person living there would have seen the “now” picture of what that town has become.
ETA: grammar
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The county leans Dem, so maybe not?
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But not this place. Natchez doesn’t fit that stereotype, yet the bulk of the posters on this thread assume it does, while only a handful actually did the research to find out differently.
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Right?
As a nearly life-long resident here, I have to say ME TOO. This past year felt really good for that (despite all the other BS happening in the world), like we’ve turned a corner that I hope the rest of the south can one day follow.
People doing the hard work in that extended quote there. And that’s what makes change.
This!
Not to mention all of New Orleans, one of the most important cultural cities in America…
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I disagree. Incredibly violent white supremacist movements are national and have always been. Segregation is still higher in the north than in the south,
[Georgia] was not always and in some places it’s still not.
We’re discussing these places at the state level, so (a) the existence of variance is given but also (b) irrelevant.
Mississippi is pretty much all MGT territory – well, 75%. 3/4 of its House reps are Trumpy Republicans.
The US can MORE than afford to give up on MS. It 4 reps in the House, will vote Trump for the forseeable future, and has no engine of economic development that could make it care what outsiders think. As noted, the ruling white wealthy class LIKE IT THE WAY IT IS. MS may well, eventually, be dragged into the 20th century, but it will be kicking and screaming all the way.
Do I think this of Alabama (where I have also lived)? No, not as much. Alabama is much bigger, and has at least one actual city, plus, you know, a huge supply of actual rocket scientists. Things look dire there now, but it COULD improve.
Did I ever think this of Georgia? No. Atlanta has been on the rise my entire adult life, and the success of a large and diverse urban area spells trouble for the sort of know-nothing bigotry in politics that dominates MS.
Mississippi is a special case. It has no real economic base that encourages change or development. The only Democratic-leaning area of the state is overwhelmingly poor – it excludes any of the cities you might, plausibly, consider living in (Jackson, Hattiesburg, the Coast), so you can’t base a statewide shift there.
If you want to work for change, it’s best to do that work in places where change is possible. Georgia is one example, and I’m glad – VERY glad – someone is doing that work! But don’t let momentary success in Georgia lead you to believe the south is universally vulnerable to the tactics used there. Mississippi is not, for all the reasons cited.
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