You look like you don’t know much about human perception and its faults, especially under stress. You definitely think too high of their abilities.
Think the earlier example of a driver not seeing another car because of not expecting it there.
This was not a problem of intention. This was a problem of cognition.
The “highest tech warship” may as well be a minus here. “Hightech” can often be read as “poorly tested”. Especially in edge conditions that aren’t that frequent.
The training somewhat lacked, in terms of handling the computers. Even during training missions the operators were prone to errors.
And I want to see how you’d perform today if yesterday a couple of your friends/shipmates were pureed and baked by a missile hit just some feet from you. I wouldn’t be surprised if today you’d be worried stiff of everything that moves in the air.
Major problem with design. Not much of the command.
What should that achieve other than revenge? Without addressing the user interface issues, there will not be much of preventative effect there.
The TADMUS program that followed was the right way to address the issue. If you compare the design of the tactical radar screen before and after, you’ll see why, inter alia.
It’s a simple enough thing to accept what descriptor the described accepts, at least it is not as dense a minefield.
It works here in Canada fairly well with FN/Inuit/Metis being the most used terminology, although ideally people would learn the tribal or band names of the peoples in their general vicinity, especially if regularly interacting.
Pre-Columbian Americans is just another label that is as faulty as any other. Pre-Columbian Americans weren’t American and didn’t know Columbus or Vespucci from a hole in the ground. All language changes are made to suit political prejudices, not accepting that means constant chagrin or abandonment of language.
Edit- With regards to what works in Canada regarding FN/Inuit/Meti… Canada gets so so much wrong like any other place. But designations that are at least an attempt at respect aren’t a sin.
I’m more interested in the third response: maybe it’s not just ethnicity that can explain why interactions with certain groups leads to killings by police officers.
[quote=“shaddack, post:66, topic:64760”]
You look like you don’t know much about human perception and its faults, especially under stress.[/quote]
Sure. If it makes you feel better, you go right ahead and believe that.
You seem desperate to forgive the murder of 290 humans. Why?
Huh. Someone linked me to this site. It shows ALL shootings and where in Chicago, even non-fatal ones. It also has the number of cop shootings vs all the other shootings in the area.
I have just skimmed through it but there looks like a lot of data to look at…
You seem to place quite some emphasis on your opinion that trained professionals are unable to cope with the exact circumstances they train and prepare for. Let’s assume that in that you are correct.
That leaves just one question in my mind: AFAICT, the USS Vincennes was not attacked on 2 July, and it appears there were no casualties on board the ship. Which makes your point moot, no?
On the morning of 3 July, Vincennes was passing through the Strait of Hormuz returning from an escort duty.[2] A helicopter from USS Vincennes reported that it received small arms fire from Iranian patrol vessels as it observed from high altitude. The cruiser moved to engage the Iranian vessels, in the course of which they all violated Omani waters and left after being challenged and ordered to leave by a Royal Navy of Oman warship.[18] Vincennes then pursued the Iranian gunboats, entering Iranian territorial waters to open fire. USS Sides and USS Elmer Montgomery were nearby. Thus, USS Vincennes was in Iranian territorial waters at the time of the incident, as admitted by the US government in legal briefs and publicly by Admiral William Crowe on Nightline.[19][20] Admiral Crowe denied a U.S. government coverup of the incident and claimed that Vincennes 's helicopter was over international waters initially, when it was first fired upon by the Iranian gunboats.[19][21]
ETA: Yeah, not on-ship, but a member of the ship’s complement was attacked. That draws repercussions pretty much no matter who you are.
Thanks! While focusing on the user interface issues, I somewhat misremembered the actual incident. (Lesson learned, Yet Again - human memory is not reliable.)
Got reminded that the maneuvers of this battle were a further factor in the overall chaos; imagine having the floor tilting significantly under your feet while you are trying to figure out what’s happening, in the battle control center that’s dark and red-lit and full of screens with poorly designed data.
They actually tried to contact the airplane, several time, but at only one frequency and referred to it in a way (by its motions, misread from the instruments) that made it possible for the pilots to dismiss the warning as intended for another airplane.
Sleep for me now, I had a tough battle with a laser controller computer.
You mean the helo deliberately drawing (ineffective) small arms fire while playing chicken?
That really doesn’t marry up with
or
This isn’t a minor point. It’s supposedly the excuse and totes legit justification for these highly trained professionals losing their shit and pulling the trigger.
I didn’t say that, and the point remains, a member of their complement was attacked that day (at least from their point of view, and not entirely unfounded). You really should try sticking with the facts.
I know you didn’t, but I wasn’t originally responding to you. FWIW, I - not surprisingly - kinda think I am sticking to the facts. I’m not, for example, making up imaginary mass casualties from imaginary missile attacks. I’m not making up reasons why these guys were totes justified. And I’m not trying to duck shove the responsibility onto someone who wasn’t there.
If you think @shaddack is claiming it was justified, I think you should read again. It seems to me more that he’s saying it’s understandable, which is entirely different.
And keep in mind, I’m the guy upthread who said first the Americans were responsible for this. My horse is not the opposite of yours, but it really looks like you’ve chosen a side.
Dude. The posts are right there. Anyone can read them.
Shad makes dopey comments about mass casualties on the Vincennes from a missile attack on the ship on the day before the shoot down. This “obviously” degrades the effectiveness of the CiC, making the shoot down justified, or understandable, or medal-worthy, or something.
I ask WTF he’s talking about, because AFAICT the ship wasn’t attacked, and there were no cas.
You insert yourself to note that the ships helo drew small arms fire while playing chicken, but no one was hurt
I ack that, but note that that doesn’t even remotely resemble Shad’s fevered imaginings
you get pissy, and suggest I stick to the facts!?
I’m completely baffled by Shads insistence that this was a simple blameless error. That’s not a position that even the US.gov or US.mil have taken.
Oh, and @shaddack : Sailors getting confused by the deck tilting? Give me a fucking break. That is the worst straw clutching I have seen in a long long time.
What if we talked about people getting shot by police in the States, like the topic says at the top of your screen?
Personally, I’ve seen that pattern here in the American west. The neighboring city’s police department (which mercifully I won’t name here) has a serial problem with the testimonies of officers and witnesses not matching up.
Sort of. I hate the general proliferation of CCTVs, and from one angle I kinda view body cams as just an further extension of them. But I can definitely see the value of tamper-proof bodycams as a step towards reigning in out of control popo.
Given the current state of policing where I live, though, I think that bodycams here would be a net negative. OTOH, I’m playing life on the easiest setting, and there could well be demographics here which would wholeheartedly support their introduction.
Dude. The posts are right there. Anyone can read them.