What's a l(L)ibertarian?

wrath
41

You’re talking about a body of people that don’t know what “socialism” means, have never read any political philosophy (including Marx, Paine, or even a Founding Father), and are blissfully ignorant of the socialist/capitalist hybrid societies of Europe but people expect them to differentiate between the very public “Libertarian Party” and the older users of the term “libertarian?”

Hell, ask an average American to define what communism is or what it is about…

So 99% of your fellow citizens then?

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42

And I forgot to point out that this cartoon hits on an important point about the difficulty of defining libertarianism, which is that it allows for a pretty broad interpretation, and the only sure thing is that libertarians are far from monolithic and just as likely to disagree with each other as anyone else.

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43

Well, exactly, which is the problem that needs to be addressed: ignorance of history, not lawyering of word usage. The very quibbling over what libertarian means misses the real problem, IMO.

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44

I consider myself a libertarian socialist.

I grew up on the writings of Ayn Rand, and to this day I believe she made an excellent argument on behalf of capitalism and individual liberty. I have also been a registered member of the Libertarian party, voting for several of their candidates, and score far closer to the libertarian than authoritarian end of the political compass.

The turning point for me was the realization that corporatism mandated the same sacrifice of the individual to the collective which Rand demonized communism for- When being made to surrender your personal liberties, it is irrelevant whether it is to the state, the church, or to the company. A worker in a mining town is no more free under the thumb of the corporation than a dissident is under a totalitarian regime- In fact, I believe the argument can be made that he is less so, simply because of the illusion that he has chosen to be there.

I also happen to view government not as a means to subjugate the population, but rather as simply the way a society pools resources for the common good (Colin Woodward makes an excellent point in American Nations about how these two viewpoints are closely associated with Appalachian and Yankee values, respectively). Admittedly, mine is an ideal, rather than evidentiary view.

So, at the end of the day, I define my “libertarianism” as a commitment to maximum personal liberty. I further define liberty as being at the end of a spectrum where one has the largest number of meaningful options available to them.

“your money or your life”, “vote for el Presidente or we have your family killed”, “love god or burn in hell” are all choices, but they are not meaningful ones. The individual has no control over his/her participation in them, or any ability to change the surrounding circumstances. Most importantly, this can manifest in more subtle ways: Tell me I can only eat in an Indian restaurant, and I will have almost more options than I can choose from; But if I have Chinese, Thai, sushi, and Italian all available, my only option is a salad- Because my allergies to soy and peanuts, my carb-free diabetic diet, and my dislike of seafood eliminate everything else on the menus. While I technically have many more choices in the second case, they aren’t meaningful ones- Because I’m not actually free to choose them.

So, while the free market is the ideal solution to most things, we have to recognize that “free” can’t exist without the absence of coercion- and what most libertarians do not understand is that that said coercion is not always as obvious as a gun to the head- A drowning man is not free to negotiate the price of a life preserver, and it makes no difference that the man providing it is not the same one who pushed him into the water.

Hence, where the “socialism” part comes in. A society which has things like roads and telecommunications and running water freely available to me affords far more meaningful options than does a society without. The less outside coercion I feel to enter into say, an employment contract or a lease, the more freedom I have to accept, decline, or negotiate that offer- So the more things like UBI and healthcare there are, the more freedom I have.

Therefore, it is worth it to me to pay the price of admission (taxes) to participate in that society, rather than say, moving to the middle of the African desert where I can be free from government interference, but also from things like, you know, everything else.

And from a free market libertarian viewpoint, that makes sense to me: I pay a fair price to live in a place which provides value.

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45

Realistically, we (as in libertarian-socialists) are having every term we can use to describe ourselves ending up hijacked by the lib-caps. If we come up with a new name for ourselves it will only end up being hijacked again in ten years time.

We could call ourselves after a left-libertarian philosopher, but that will only end up with splits and sectarianism, which is the last thing we need.

That said, I remember someone suggesting we call ourselves “cute fluffy kittens”, if only for the potentially hilarious new reports.

Last night at an anti-Trump protest, a group of cute fluffy kittens were throwing bricks through the windows of banks and setting fire to police cars.

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47

I just call myself a “socialist” and bask in the horror and dismay of the uninformed as they react.

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48

I know you’re being semi-sarcastic, but wouldn’t you rather Americans learn what socialism really is than recoil in horror are the lies they were taught?

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49

The thing I’ve always found disappointing (!) sometimes in the comments here is that I would think that this is a group of commenters more politically educated than the average bear, yet when it comes to libertarianism, people here seem fine with letting the average village idiot on Facebook define what libertarianism means, while simultaneously complaining about peoples’ comprehension of socialism or communism. I mean, I’ve seen this conversation (paraphrased) several times:

“blah blah libertarians are selfish Randian mouth breathing rednecks”
“That’s not actually what it means…”
“but the libertarians we see/hear say that, and therefore that’s what it means so stop using it if you want meaningful communication”

While no one likes “educate yourself” or “go read a book”, there is a point at which it would be nice if people made the same effort to better understand other points of view as you would like other people to spend understanding the history and undergirding of yours. If for no other reason than to consider how their positions might be used to advance your agenda and build bridges to reach common goals.

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50

Since the average American knows as much about socialism as they do about libertarianism, is that really an improvement?

Although I am fighting this battle in the UK, where the battle isn’t lost and there is a fair chance that a person who wrongly identifies as libertarian is a Trotskyist rather than a Laissez-faire capitalist.

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Warning: US-centric meme…

CzwK9DOUkAA7XTw.jpg large.jpg800×584 77.3 KB

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52

I’d like a pony too but neither is going to happen.

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Because this battle was lost decades ago and it is just that certain folks are in denial about it.

Sorry but usage defines words in general use and “libertarian” is now synonymous with the Libertarian Party except for a few outliers who still think they can reclaim the word. They (you) can’t. That ship sailed long ago.

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54

Well, since I don’t except any actual understanding on their part, normally, it makes no difference.

I don’t expect people to educate themselves. I don’t expect “average” Americans to have any in-depth thinking on politics or philosophy. If pressed, I expect that they can discuss TV shows, celebrities, and the news of the moment as given to them on the Internet and television news. That’s it.

Update: oh, and their local sports team.

People are willfully ignorant and just don’t care about politics unless it transparently has a direct impact on them that can be phrased in something about as long as a tweet.

55

Well, for reasons I’ve already stated (that libertarianism can mean nearly anything) I shouldn’t generalize about small L’s, but the big L’s in the states seem to think they still need people to arrest people thieves and courts to enforce contracts.[quote=“stinkinbadgers, post:35, topic:91237”]
To be fair, a libertarian would probably say that the only people who should be locked up are those who violate the NAP, which I think is a little more serious than “people you don’t agree with”. But libertarians are just as open to exploring alternate forms of punishment for crimes as people sometimes discuss around here. In fact, criminal justice reform (and high incarceration specifically) is high on the list of libertarian issues,
[/quote]

I’m always more likely to agree with weirdos than with “normal” people, and that includes libertarians. I don’t mean to say bad things about people who are libertarian and individual opinions range from very insightful to comically foolish (some of those “strawmen” are thing some libertarians say themselves). Unfortunately with libertarians, if there is a stupid idea you can think of, someone who calls themselves a libertarian will support it.

I have a libertarian in the family. I’d say his views I agree with are about staying out of wars and making sure people’s voices count in democracy. I’d say his views I strongly disagree with are about trusting Adam Smith regarding what people are like.

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56

The cold undead hand of Adam Smith.

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57

Is that an invitation to dress up? Fetish night at Enso’s house!

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58

In which case it doesn’t matter if I call myself a libertarian socialist or libertarian communist, because it is only you who is cares enough to make a fuss over it.

I, on the other hand, do have a problem with people telling me what I can and can’t call myself, especially when it is factually accurate. Call it a side effect of being trans in an unsupportive environment.

I see no point in continuing this part of the discussion.

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59

Pony boys and girls are easier to get than actual ponies, as it turns out.

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61

I define libertarian as whatever makes the charges fucking stick. It seriously gets old to criticize libertarianism and get back the old No True Scotsman.

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