☭ Sup Marxists? ☭

[FoolishOwl]

As I said, this thread mostly hasn’t been about Gamergate.

But I do have to say, on the subject of Gamergate, that between the fact that I work in IT, and that I’ve been a lifelong gamer, I’ve become acquainted with women who work in IT, and women who work in the game industry, and I’ve seen a lot of misogyny in the IT industry, and how it has injured women. And the threats against Quinn, Sarkeesian, Wu, etc., were implicitly threats against the much larger number of women who work in these industries, and beyond that, women whose lives are affected by the products of these industries.

Gamergate is the visible manifestation of a larger social conflict. It is not trivial.

[OtherMichael]

@Cowicide

Again, I just wish people would put this same kind of energy and effort more into issues that matter instead of complaining about how the country/world is going to shit and there’s nothing they can do about it.

I’m not saying everyone in this thread or BBS is guilty of such a thing, but I do see a preponderance of it and I find it a bit disheartening that such good, smart people who could get together on issues that matter… often don’t bother.

##I find it disheartening that you would come in here and shit on the floor.

I’m not saying you did that or are guilty of such a thing, but I do see a preponderance of good and smart people posting shit like that, while denying they posted it.

Seriously. Those who are participating in this thread enjoy participating in this thread. There are those who enjoy bass fishing. Do you jump into their boats and say “I find it so disheartening that you are bass fishing instead of getting together on issues that matter to me”? Do they then offer you a brewski and slap you on the back and say “righto mate, you got us there. Let’s go solve world hunger!” Or do they gut you with a gaff and use you for chum, chum?

Why would you pop in just to say “hey, y’all is talking about something that bores me” when you could just go off and do something that doesn’t bore you or irritate us.

Go away or we shall replace you with a very small shell script.

One that echoes “I don’t understand” or “Where’s the tea” or “I am so disappointed in you” should suffice.

[popobawa4u]

@Cowicide

If all this concerted effort went towards gathering support for Bernie Sanders or someone else to lead the USA, I bet it’d have quite an impact.

There are those of us for whom what really matters is not having leaders.

@Cowicide

Such a waste of something so incredibly powerful and such a wasteful distraction for good people.

That’s very much like what I say about countries!

[anon50609448]

@AnonyMouse

Anyway, it looks like we’ve hit the inevitable point where the language is policed rather than the sentiments. Tedious.

When someone tells you a phrase you used is offensive and your inclination is to continue using that phrase, I think you have to ask yourself what is so important about that phrase to you. When “language is policed” instead of “sentiment” what is really being policed is the sentiment that someone doesn’t care enough about hurting other people to bother choosing different words.

@AnonyMouse

Sure, and to be honest I hate that kind of faux-open ‘I understand and validate you, self-harming child’ trope wherever it appears.

But are the self-harming children out there all big dupes for this? If you get any traction with people who self harm with your description of self harm then you probably actually do understand it to a significant degree.

@popobawa4u

References to prostitution certainly don’t strike me as being gendered.

Well, I think they generally are. The term “sissy” was used to apply to girls and boys when I was a kid, but it’s still a modification of “sister” and built on the idea that girls are cowardly or weak. When you say it to a boy you are comparing the boy to a girl. When you say it to a girl you are saying that she is so like-a-girl.

The word “whore” is pretty gendered and grabs onto the idea that women are supposed to be pure and that they are being bad women when they sell themselves. If a man is called an “attention whore” the same implication is made that he is trading off something he ought not trade off for that attention, by way of reference to the purity expected of women. Try replacing it with a neutral term like “sex worker.” “Attention sex worker” doesn’t really imply anything - it’s actually pretty hard to make sense of. It’s not the reference to exchanging sex for currency that’s the problem, it’s the word “whore” which has it’s own connotations that go way beyond that.

@Cowicide

Wow, 534 posts? This thread is kind of representative of what I loathe about GamerGate type shit and why I usually avoid it for the most part.

This thread is mostly a few posters having a good time. Are we not supposed to go out with our friends for drinks because we could be doing something more important? Was your post an example of one of those more-important-things?

[Mindysan33]

@popobawa4u

some people’s exploitive treatment of others?

Oh, no, no no… see that doesn’t happen. Ever, at all. Because @TrollsOpinion said so. I mean, what do I know about my own fucking life, being a “female”. Nothing. I need a MAN to let me know what is the what. /s

@popobawa4u

This sounds pseudo-provocative

That’s his thing. Not engaging on topics, but tricking people into looking like idiots.

[Mindysan33]

@Cowicide

Again, I just wish people would put this same kind of energy and effort more into issues that matter instead of complaining about how the country/world is going to shit and there’s nothing they can do about it.

I understand this, and I think you’re right somewhat, but I think we need to let off steam and try to figure things out too. I don’t think it’s just empty complaining, you know.

[popobawa4u]

@anon50609448

Well, I think they generally are. The term “sissy” was used to apply to girls and boys when I was a kid, but it’s still a modification of “sister” and built on the idea that girls are cowardly or weak. When you say it to a boy you are comparing the boy to a girl. When you say it to a girl you are saying that she is so like-a-girl.

The word “whore” is pretty gendered and grabs onto the idea that women are supposed to be pure and that they are being bad women when they sell themselves. If a man is called an “attention whore” the same implication is made that he is trading off something he ought not trade off for that attention, by way of reference to the purity expected of women. Try replacing it with a neutral term like “sex worker.” “Attention sex worker” doesn’t really imply anything - it’s actually pretty hard to make sense of. It’s not the reference to exchanging sex for currency that’s the problem, it’s the word “whore” which has it’s own connotations that go way beyond that.

I get what you are saying, but these sound like instances of make the possibly pejorative meanings the only ones that matter. Etymologically, sister and whore are solidly endearing. What if I don’t share the values or assumptions of the people who throw these around as terms of disrespect? Just knowing that they intend to be disrespectful is unfortunate enough. If I think sister or whore are complements, why should I abandon them based upon somebody else’s toxic values? Comparing a boy to a girl is only a bad thing if you have a problem with girls in the first place. It seems wrong to me that I should change how I value it simply because somebody uses something I am proud of as a term of disrespect. Since I don’t equate chastity with purity, and see sex work as more of a community service, I feel the same concern with regards to the use of the term whore as connoting a form of disrespect.

To let such terms go and not use them feels like giving up part of my own values and giving legitimacy to those of the disrespectful party, which seems like a huge concession to me. It seems better to discuss meanings than let people tarnish parts of the language and render them unusable, and for the wrong reasons.

[anon50609448]

@Mindysan33

But hey, I’m just a woman, so I sure has hell don’t know what I’m talking about when I say that I experience sexism often. I mean, I should just shut up and let the men decide what’s best, right?

I think you misunderstood. It’s not that you don’t encounter these problems, of course you do. It’s just that these problems are creations of the cultural marxists for the purpose of creating cynicism so that one day we’ll wake up, and (to borrow a phrase from @popobawa4u) take over the factory.

Unless women experienced things like this before the 1900’s and before Marx was born. I can’t see how that could be true, though.

[quote=“popobawa4u, post:553, topic:43201”]
If I think sister or whore are complements, why should I abandon them based upon somebody else’s toxic values?
[/quote]Well, like I said above, the question becomes whether using a certain word in a certain way is more important to you than being avoiding doing things that you know are hurtful to other people. You can think of this as fighting the good fight, but the real result of that fight is upsetting people who you are supposedly supportive of and changing nothing about the people you are supposedly fighting against. When the good fight is 100% friendly fire, I’m not sure it’s such a good fight.

[Mindysan33]

@anon50609448

It’s just that these problems are creations of the cultural marxists for the purpose of creating cynicism so that one day we’ll wake up

Oh, so they just aren’t real?

[popobawa4u]

@anon50609448

Well, like I said above, the question becomes whether using a certain word in a certain way is more important to you than being avoiding doing things that you know are hurtful to other people.

What bothers me is not whether or not I can use a certain word a certain way, it’s that they can only be hurtful “friendly fire” if people I care about are internalizing the values of people who don’t respect them. This is what I find disturbing about it. It seems like people are unnecessarily accepting their own marginality.

[anon50609448]

@Mindysan33

Oh, so they just aren’t real?

No, they are totally real creations of the global Cultural Marxist network, through Social Science departments at universities.

@popobawa4u

It seems like people are unnecessarily accepting their own marginality.

And is taking a stand about word use helping that problem?

[Mindysan33]

OH, well, as a woman, I was just to dumb to notice. Better get back to the kitchen, those sandwhices and pies are not going to make themselves!

[anon50609448]

@Mindysan33

OH, well, as a woman, I was just to dumb to notice. Better get back to the kitchen, those sandwhices and pies are not going to make themselves!

No, don’t feel bad. Almost no one has noticed the cultural marxist conspiracy. Only super-duper smart people like @TrollsOpinion have figured it out. And don’t worry about making those sandwiches and pies, once we root out these marxists you’ll be treated as an equal of men (just like women were pre-1900) because it would be inefficient for the market to not treat you as such.

[popobawa4u]

@Mindysan33

Oh, so they just aren’t real?

They usually turn out to be weather balloons, or swamp gas.

@anon50609448

And is taking a stand about word use helping that problem?

It helps more than turning ordinary words into insults does. It might not fix anything, but I do think the dance of everybody always shifting to less pejorative synonyms actively hinders. I’d rather help people to have some pride in themselves.

[anon50609448]

@popobawa4u

It helps more than turning ordinary words into insults does.

Well, I don’t think there was ever a time that “whore” was not meant as an insult by the majority of users. It’s not like English culture has a history of positive views of sex work.

Words are turned into insults by school children, and I don’t see how to hold back history on this one. Any shorthand for a person with a developmental disability is going to be used to make fun of people because people think negative things about people with developmental disabilities. “Idiot,” “moron,” “retarded person,” all suffered the same fate. Somehow I don’t think schoolyard children are going to take up “Person with a developmental disability” as an insult because, for one thing, it’s just too many syllables, but for another thing, it’s a little too on-the-nose. If you say “person with a development disability” as an insult then you are being 100% clear that it is you who is prejudiced. I prefer “sex worker” instead of “prostitute” or other terms for similar reasons.

I think you’ve discounted the possibility that we are in this “dance of shifting to a less pejorative synonym” because we are actually refining our terms rather than simply meaninglessly replacing them. We haven’t updated out term from X to Y to Z, we’ve updated it to functionally superior language that is more resistant to being used as a pejorative and that better expresses what we mean to express. “Sex work is work” is a much better poster slogan for sex worker rights than “Whoring is work.”

But more than that, I choose “sex worker” and “person with a developmental disability” because those are terms that these communities chose for themselves. These words were chosen by people who do have pride in themselves, and they represent that pride. “Whore” was chosen in a bygone age when at least 99% of the population would have thought the idea of a sex worker having pride in herself would be ridiculous. I don’t understand how it is a term that represents more acceptance or pride than a term chosen by sex workers the reflects them.

All of this aside, it seems like you just want to swim against the tide here. Language is going to change and if you stick to archaic terms then you will seem archaic. And as the idea of sex work being a legitimate occupation is a very progressive one, siding with the past here will convince nearly everyone you talk to that you are anti-sex work. I don’t see how that makes sense unless your concern for the dictionary is larger than your concern for the people you support.

[Cowicide]

[quote=“Humbabella, post:549, topic:43201”]
This thread is mostly a few posters having a good time. Are we not supposed to go out with our friends for drinks because we could be doing something more important?[/quote]It’s not an either/or situation for me. I’d just like to see good, smart people like yourself and others here also collaborating at boingboing on important issues and working together to take action.

That would be something very wonderful in my eyes. Something truly, truly wonderful.

I also strongly suspect it would be a nightmare come true for some of the very same people we tend to joyfully criticize within these threads. There’s so many bad, dumb people working together to make this world a miserable place. I’d love to see the opposite of that come to fruition much more often and I think the fine folks here at boingboing are fertile ground for this.

It’s my love for this community that compels me.

[Cowicide]

[quote=“Mindysan33, post:552, topic:43201”]
I understand this, and I think you’re right somewhat, but I think we need to let off steam and try to figure things out too. I don’t think it’s just empty complaining, you know.
[/quote]I completely agree. I’m sorry that I came across like I was criticizing this thread in particular. God only knows how much I love @funruly’s effort here (and @funruly too) along with the energy that it’s sparked throughout this thread.

Also, Gawd only knows how much I’ve used this BBS, Reddit and elsewhere for catharsis… just like the posts in this thread. Also, reading your rants and others aids in my catharsis as well.

I’m sure I’m not alone when I click that little heart button on your posts and others here, it also goes along with a cathartic mental “high five” and…

What I tried to say (and failed) was that I think this community is amazing and I would love to see this energy channeled into something… something so wonderful it gives me chills.

[Cowicide]

If you’re being facetious …

Why would you think that?

Because I’m an asshole.

Prefer to keep things out in the open, thanks. If I get dragged in to sharing personal stuff via PM, don’t know where it’ll end up. If I just keep things vague and general in the open, I’ve got more control, if you get what I mean.

Very good, I completely understand and agree. Now please post your bank account details.

Kidding aside, I wasn’t sure where you were going with it, so that’s why I suggested a PM. But, I agree that being open and transparent is the best way to go.

Your point seems to be that it’s really easy for people to whinge about things, but taking actual positive and constructive action is more difficult, this is a good chance for you to, ya know, walk that talk.

Shit, yeah!

You sound like you’ve got some ideas. Let’s hear them.

My initial idea or starting point would be to first gather ideas from those within the community for taking collective, positive actions. Kind of like old-school 4chan raids, but for doing good things instead of negative, harmful, destructive things. It goes without saying it wouldn’t involve attacking people, ganging up on people, etc. – Maybe some sort of relatively simple charter could be formed that has simple guidelines to promote being a force for good. Transparency will be important. I mean, transparency has its disadvantages, but when you’re a force for good, hidden agendas only slow things down, in my opinoin.

I also would like to see transparent voting implemented. I think that would help to gather consensus and even solidarity. I’m sure that solidarity scares some here since that can lead to a groupthink that shuns outside opinions. But I think the community here is kick ass enough to not wield that power like we see with so many other communities whose premise is to hurt others instead of changing this world for the better. I also think a basic charter that’s transparently voted upon could be helpful in that regard as well.

I do think there will have to be some practical safeguards from trollies, but it shouldn’t be hostile to new outsiders who want to join in the, er… “boingboing movement” either. That’s where I think transparent voting, etc and a voted upon, simple charter can also be helpful.

Welp, you asked for some ideas and that’s a few off the top of my head.

[anon73629133]

Oh, I only helped built this pot. I don’t touch the flies that land here… nuh uh.

The spiders would not be happy if I played with their food.

[Cowicide]

[quote=“FoolishOwl, post:546, topic:43201”]
Gamergate is the visible manifestation of a larger social conflict. It is not trivial.
[/quote]Then let’s do something about it.