doctorow at November 3rd, 2013 22:47 — #1
thecorrectline at November 3rd, 2013 23:08 — #2
Hopefully this gets lots of attention. Counter terrorism units morphing into thinkpol is frighteningly real.
sqlrob at November 3rd, 2013 23:14 — #3
What's this "ing" bit? I think we're more into the past tense here.
fuzzyfungus at November 3rd, 2013 23:14 — #4
Strictly speaking, isn't somebody in possession of a filled-out ballot a person whose 'disclosure or threat of disclosure is designed to influence a government, and is made for the purpose of promoting a political or ideological cause'?
Somebody seems to have (No doubt accidentally...) elided the distinction between 'influence' and 'violent coercive force'.
I'm not sure that Cameron (or our boys on this side of the pond, in fairness) really grasp that exercising 'influence' over governments is not subversion different only in degree from blowing them up, it's sort of the whole point of government being representative...
(Also worth noting: Isn't Cameron one of those 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear!' types? Surely the blameless and upstanding conduct of the British intelligence services is immune to damage if their role is better understood. Why, little old ladies and boy scouts will be lining up to express the appreciation they never knew they felt before! How could anything compromising exist?)
patrace at November 3rd, 2013 23:15 — #5
Detained for carrying materials designed to "influence a government" or "for the purpose of promoting a political or ideological cause."
This is why I only read Sky Mall, don't want any dangerous thoughts infecting that brain of mine!
simonj48 at November 3rd, 2013 23:32 — #6
Don't worry, Cameron will soon have enough backing to block sites like this from the internet in the UK to insure we don't see the evil information out there.
backtoyoujim at November 3rd, 2013 23:42 — #7
Is this because they have nationalised health care?
weatherman667 at November 3rd, 2013 23:42 — #8
I hate to play the devil's advocate here, but no else seems to want to.
Step 1: "We assess that Miranda is knowingly carrying material, the release of which would endanger people's lives."
This is what they are calling terrorism. This is why he was detained.
Step 2: "Additionally the disclosure or threat of disclosure is designed to influence a government, and is made for the purpose of promoting a political or ideological cause."
This is not the act, but the justification for the act. By claiming he's only doing it for political/ideological gain, this is a preemptive challenge to a Public Good defense.
He is, however, being still being harassed for not playing ball.
glitch at November 3rd, 2013 23:52 — #9
"Violent coercive force"? Haven't you heard? Terrorism isn't about violence! In fact, terrorism was never about violence! Terrorism can be anything you want it to be! Just pick something! Anything!
Don't like someone? Call them a terrorist, then lock them away! There's almost no oversight, so who's going to care? That's what's so great about Freedom and Liberty!
agonist at November 3rd, 2013 23:54 — #10
I remember learning in the 80's that Britain had freedom of speech and a free press like America but, unlike America, that right wasn't actually guaranteed under the law. This illustrates the importance of writing things down.
glitch at November 3rd, 2013 23:55 — #11
Aye, writing things down is a good practice. You'd be surprised how quickly people forget things that they would never dream of forgetting at the time.
thecorrectline at November 3rd, 2013 23:59 — #12
Unless it's the details of your illegal spying activities. That you may want to not write down and make powerpoints of and stuff.
martian at November 4th, 2013 00:19 — #13
Wait... does this mean the UK can arrest their politicians?
"...the disclosure or threat of disclosure is designed to influence a government, and is made for the purpose of promoting a political or ideological cause. This therefore falls within the definition of terrorism."
aliceweir at November 4th, 2013 00:28 — #14
You mean, as in writing them down, burying all the dead from the last regime that objected to what you wrote down, and then actually, insistently HONORING what you wrote down?
Because, just having it written down somewhere obviously isn't getting it done, lately...
newliminted at November 4th, 2013 00:36 — #15
Well sir, you're hanging out in the wrong blog.
peter_jones905 at November 4th, 2013 00:37 — #16
Stop playing games. The guy is a menace. They did their jobs. Good for them.
newliminted at November 4th, 2013 00:40 — #17
Agreed. Shut down this thread. All the important stuff has been said.
retepslluerb at November 4th, 2013 00:55 — #18
I'd like to see that definition of terrorism. And then see the reopening of Nuremberg for Dresden and the like.
rindan at November 4th, 2013 01:01 — #19
A newspaper would also fall into the category. If 'endangering lives' is code for 'would disarm us in the hilariously named war on terror', than anything that is against the paranoid security state is terrorism. The EFF is basically Al-qaeda in this fucked up world.
All people acting in public good are doing it for political or ideological reasons.
You are not playing devil's advocate. You are playing brutal police state advocate.
thecorrectline at November 4th, 2013 01:31 — #20
Little harsh there. We don't know the full scope of the materials Snowden took. The identities of covert operatives? Sounds like a bad movie plot, but he had access to a lot of information. At any rate there is some small amount of info a state really needs to keep secret. The existence of xkeyscore obviously isn't one of those things, but at this point we can only guess as to exactly what the content of the Snowden files is.
Not excusing these guys for harassing Miranda, I think the behavior displayed by the US and UK governments is terrifying, but it is possible they actually believed Miranda was "knowingly carrying material, the release of which would endanger people's lives.". Acknowledging that doesn't make anyone a "brutal police state advocate".
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