if someone is to the left of mike pence i would certainly be willing to blame them for not jumping at the chance to vote for the environment, for a liberal majority on the supreme court, and for a justice department which would continue to support the rights of the less privileged members of our society.
warmongering i can accept; corporatist leaves me goggling and saying “as compared to who?;” the only current politician regarded as more truthful then clinton, as judged by politifact and the washington post fact checkers, is obama; and her actions during the primary are called politics and were no dirtier than any other example of primary politics over the past 30 years and compared to the 100 years preceding that were remarkably clean: so buzzwords-yes, true?-no.
They’re not interested in “small government”. They’re interested in government that doesn’t stop them doing anything they want whilst making sure that other people don’t get to do anything. It’s ultimate whining for a safe space.
Agreed, this is super important to think about right now. There was a must read Op-Ed in the NYT the other day, comparing Trump’s rise to Berlusconi’s:
It talks about how Berlusconi was able to distract people from his policies by getting them focused on his personality. People were so obsessed with debating whether he was an asshole that they stopped debating actual policy. Sound familiar? From the article:
For some of us, there is no hope or desire for reconciliation or understanding, because they have already proved who they are and what they are capable of.
For me, the relation is at the most basic biological connection. We have disliked each other as far back as I can remember, and are likely a prime representation of the classic dichotomy since Cain and Abel.
I have always known him to be conservative, demonstrably narrow-minded, racist, and self-loathing. I say self-loathing because he was also my personal molester (very likely no one else - just me). I have maintained “no contact” with him for decades. There is absolutely no way I can come to a reconciliation with a Trump supporter of this caliber.
For every alt-right person out there who supported Trump, I wonder how many people are out there like me, who cannot reconcile due to the base nature of the Trump supporter in their lives?
P.S. We can’t always picture Trump supporters as ignorant hillbillies. My Trump supporter “technically” lives in the South, but worked as a vice-president of regional sales for one of the country’s leading manufacturing companies that caters to the moneyed set. Our family believes it was his racist views that made it easier for him to be let go during the last recession.
We really don’t know how it worked out like this. He and I are products of the same environment, but couldn’t be more different.
I (and this probably does not come as a surprise to you) disagree.
If you can’t make up your mind to stand enough behind Hillary Clinton there where other candidates as well. And you could have not voted if you really disliked the choices. I regularly skip voting if I can’t find an option I am at least somewhat OK with.
And I also think that you will have a much more honest conversation with a Trump supporter if you actually tell them what you think of them - regardless whether they are relatives or not. Putting lipstick on this pig (the pig in this case being the vote for Trump not Trump himself also this argument could very likely be made) will get you nowhere. Be brave - face the conflict - which is what politics is all about: conflicts and their resolution.
To reiterate - this is what this is all about: Politics, not psychology. Of course it’s complex - but the choices have been made and now is the time to justify them - not gloss them over.
The problem I’m having with all this “be understanding” talk is that we all know the people in our extended families who voted for Trump. They’re the ones who insist on making racist comments about the black football players when we watch football on Thanksgiving. They’re the ones who pick on the gay cousin and the single mother. For years my mother would shush me if I tried to speak up against “Uncle Bill.” “Don’t start a fight. It’s the holidays.” Well, after I quit going to those family dinners I found out that my Dad got himself banned for telling “Uncle Bill” that he was wrong and should be quiet. I respect him way more than I do Mom.
All the "Uncle Bill"s out there need to hear what we think. No more “don’t start a fight.” I didn’t start it but I’m going to have to finish it. “Uncle Bill” can be the patient and understanding one this year, after all, his side won and winners should be gracious.
First off, I wouldn’t blame them. I voted for her because I felt that I had to. No other reason. That’s not very compelling of a reason, and I would have gladly voted for Jill Stein if the stakes weren’t as high. As one of the less privileged members of society to whom you throw crusts of bread, I don’t feel that Hillary Clinton cares about me whatsoever, and only believes I have rights so long as opinion polls and donors say I do.
Instead of asking tone-deaf pseudoliberal questions as to why someone voted the way they did, I just accept that this election was not pleasant for anyone except the hardcore Clinton and Trump supporters. There were a lot of people voting for candidates they didn’t want to vote for. I wouldn’t want to pressure a Trump voter about their vote, just like I wouldn’t want anyone to pressure me about my Clinton vote, which I’m already sorely regretting.
The many Trump supporters in my life are not reasonable, and never were reasonable. They just hid it better before believing in conspiracy theories became the norm. The only thing I can do is try to get the truth out, although it’s already too late. Regardless, even though I think they’re wrong, I still have to try and keep things respectful.
I don’t want to cut anyone out of my life, and I’m very hesitant to do it. I can care about people I don’t like much, and I think this is a feature, not a bug. I just keep most everyone at arm’s length. I’ve learned very early on in life that almost all people are deeply flawed and most cannot be relied on. I don’t hold that against them, but it is what it is.
Certainly there are people who are all those things, there are a lot of people who are some of those things, and there are people who are none of those things. The problem is, just like the people you have no empathy for, you are stereotyping and assuming they are all the same. I guess take solace in the fact that they feel the same way about you.
Don’t become what you hate and take a few minute at of your day to see how our angry thoughts tend to perpetuate themselves. Demonize and not seeing the other side as people is exactly what has caused this divide and will only continue this downward spiral.
What is that from? Machiavelli? I don’t think he is that cunning or smart, but perhaps.
No - it isn’t just politics anymore. People are hardly discussing politics anymore, they are discussing how horrible the others side is and how it is ruining America. There is no conflict and resolution because everyone is so over saturated with pro-bias for their side, and anti-bias for the other. By the time they actually interact with each other no one is listing because they know the other side is full of “assholes” and it degrades into name calling and shouting.
Did you watch the video? Can you not see this is happening everywhere?
Whether or not that approach is effective, I’ve gotta twitch at the connection of “scientifically proven” and “Maslow”.
Maslow’s hierarchy of needs was an unsupported hypothesis that he pulled from his arse and never bothered to prove. It was debunked in mainstream psych research decades ago; these days it’s a historical curiosity, not a live theory.
Maslow routinely gets cited as fact in marketing and sociology contexts, but it just ain’t so.
Fair enough. I thought it was interesting that the second level is often the one that the right wing appeals to though. Maybe not health as much, but giving you the idea that your basic needs are under threat (and that feeling of personal or group insecurity does seem to make people less likely to consider the wider needs of society, especially other groups). “Scientifically proven” – yeah, whether or not there are studies to support it, I wouldn’t have made that claim myself.
You can’t demonize demons. No matter what their supposed excuses, the reality is anyone who voted for Trump either did so because of or was willing to ignore his rabid sexism, racism and incompetence. They have no excuse, and pretending that they were somehow stupid enough to not notice all that and just innocently voted for him with no idea what would happen is not only insulting to them, but dangerous for everyone who has to endure them. This is exactly what they wanted and they worked hard to get it. We got where we are now by underestimating them. STOP DOING THAT.
Does this view make it hard to negotiate and reconcile with them? Yes. I’m not going to support racist, sexist fascists, or meet them halfway, or do anything but oppose them in every way I can. It’s non-negotiable. As for reconciliation, I’ll consider it the moment they stop doing those things. I’m not holding my breath.
Those are Reagan Republicans, not “old traditional style Republicans”. Eisenhower, Rockefeller, Nixon, Ford, even Goldwater wouldn’t recognize them. Donald Trump is the reduction ad absurdem of the Reagan Revolution.
I was thinking this, from Lennon and Mcartney:
You say you’ll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it’s the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead
