20 or more shooting victims reported in San Bernardino, CA. Police seeking active shooter

Wow, three shooters all with mental health issues. Are you sure they weren’t just fucking assholes with unbelievably easy access to powerful weapons?

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Looks like they’ve identified them now, and they’re confirming the story about a dispute at the party, then leaving and coming back to shoot.

I can’t reconcile that with the idea of AK-47s, pipe bombs and ‘assault gear’.

It all seems very bizarre. And horrible.

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Right? More backstory is surely on the way.

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From the victims’ perspective, this is true in the sense that they are often not intending to be shot. The shooter is much more important to the event, and cutting down the death toll by denying the shooters’ role in a statistical lie wrapped in the guise of incurious skepticism about statistics is simply wrong-headed or dishonest. I don’t need to know which of the two it is to call it horseshit.

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Fuck’s sake, America. Haven’t you yet figured out this is not the sort of thing in which you should be a world leader?

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You are aware that the Constitution can be amended, right? And that we’ve actually taken the step of repealing an amendment to the Constitution when it became abundantly clear that it was destructive to the safety and security of the people in this country? The Constitution is not the Bible. It’s not a religious document. Even freedom of speech could be repealed if there were ever sufficient support for doing so.

Guess it’s time to re-post my list, then…

First:
Abolish the second amendment. It was created over 200 years ago when you could fire a single-shot musket once every 5 minutes or so, and had basically even odds of hitting someone with your shot. It was not designed to deal with the kinds of weaponry and standing armies we have today. The second amendment is not sacrosanct, it can be modified or repealed through a new constitutional amendment.

To improve the general safety and accountability of gun ownership commensurate with the danger these weapons pose:

  • Create a national registry of firearms and link them to their owners. We do this (at the state level) with cars and even some prescription drugs, so doing it with a lethal weapon doesn’t seem like a terrible stretch.
  • Require a license for all firearms, which must be renewed annually through a re-application process requiring no less than three hours of firearms training relevant to the type of weapon being licensed, as well as a psychiatric evaluation to assess the mental fitness of the potential owner.
  • Every additional firearm purchased by an individual must require similar registration, training, and screening.

To reduce the dangers of criminals with guns:

  • No firearm may be sold without first having its barrel rifling pattern recorded along with its serial number, so that in the event of a crime, its owner can be located.
  • Gun owners who lose their guns or have them stolen from them will be obligated to file a police report, and gun sales must be reported to a state authority.
  • If a weapon is not reported as sold, lost, or stolen and the firearm is used in a crime, the original owner will be considered to have aided and abetted in the commission of that crime.
  • In the event of a stolen weapon being used in the commission of a crime, negligent ownership on the part of the rightful license holder will be grounds for criminal charges, regardless of whether the weapon was reported stolen.
  • Create a fund, backed by the addition of a tax on gun and ammunition sales, that can be used to institute a permanent federal gun buy-back program (ideally one which rewards more than 100% of the gun’s current value). If a registered gun is stolen and then traded in to the buy-back program, the owner can file a report, the gun can be returned to them, and the person who traded it in would also be on record to pursue for the theft.

To aid in the process of “making whole” those families who are victims of gun violence:

  • Require every gun owner to carry insurance for their firearms.
  • Eliminate liability lawsuit immunity for gun manufacturers.
  • Establish a fund, also backed by the firearm/ammo sales tax, that can be tapped by victims and their families to provide for medical care and/or funeral costs.
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Agreed, the only way to have a civilized society is to politicize things at least 20 years after they’ve happened so as to not get anyone upset. So, really these shooters with their pesky repetitiveness are keeping us from politicizing this volatile issue - I guess we should thank them, nobody likes politics.

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Deleted: That was stupid. Regret posting it.

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It is a lot easier to pull a trigger than slit a wrist. The idea of physically cutting yourself can sometimes be enough to scare you away from an attempt and give you another chance to get help.

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Given that this sub-argument started as a statistics for accident type probability, for future comparison of likelihood and therefore the relative importance on the worry scale (and possibly the resource assignment importance) against other cases of death, I have to insist the shooters-who-are-also-the-victims have to be excluded from this one statistics.

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You are right, usually it is the gun in the wrong place at the wrong time not the person.

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It looks like they may well be Muslim too, which will change a lot of people’s thinking from “this is just the necessary cost of freedom” to “terrorism that just goes to show how we can’t trust Muslims”.

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You see, while this is a generally good plan, that doesn’t ban firearms outright, and would likely increase accountability and reduce gun violence, it makes owning a gun harder. And the guys with guns get really upset when you make owning guns harder.

I try not to upset guys with guns. They can shoot you, you know. It’s much safer to let the guys with guns get their way. Much like letting the wookiee win.

/sarc
/only half sarc.

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McVeigh wanted to take down an 8 story building. If what he wanted to do instead was kill a dozen people, a set of pipe bombs or pressure cooker bombs would have done just fine.

That said, I don’t think bombs will ever be the tool of choice with most mass killings. I think these kinds of killers want to be actively involved in killing people and bombs are too passive or requires too much planning.

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Religious Lover, Workplace Fervour or Jilted Grudge,

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Private individuals at the time of the founding of the US owned far more dangerous weapons than probably anyone currently legally owns in the US including cannons, mortars, bombs, grenades and explosive shells.

The Continental Congress wasn’t ignorant about how destructive weapons could be and considering private citizens fielded their own navies, the fact that their weapons were sub-par by today’s standards doesn’t mean they were any less deadly (excluding nukes of course).

As far as poor shooting muskets being state of the art guns, the revolving Belton flintlock was shown to the Continental Congress in 1777 that could fire 20 rounds in 5 seconds. The Girandoni air rifle created a year after the Constitution was ratified fired 20 .46 caliber rounds in a magazine and was more than deadly enough to kill people.

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Just reclassify these types as homo ballistis

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You’re kind of making the same point I was trying to make. The gun debate consumes so much time and energy and goes nowhere. Forget about it, there are more effective ways to spend your time.

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Same reason as schools and PP offices; soft targets.
There is nothing heroic about these people. Look at Breivik; fat, sweaty loser living in fantasy world. But sane enough to choose a soft target rather than trying to shoot up a military base.

[edit - the significance of the “fat,sweaty” bit is that he wasn’t particularly physically fit, another reason for choosing soft targets.]

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