$12K more than I can afford too.
A few years ago there was talk of one of the lines being bought by a cooperative. I don’t think they got very far though.
Nationalised breweries seemed to work
But yes, I’m not a fan of nationalisation either, even though I am very left wing.
[quote=“heng, post:40, topic:101592, full:true”]
You really believe that? You think that all the historical examples of nationalized industries have been rip roaring successes?[/quote]
Your logic is all over the place. I was answering your narrow question of “how we make that some group [for whom the system is run] most closely aligned with the users.” The canonical answer to that is nationalization. Another option is very highly regulated monopoly.
I don’t see that this is necessary or desirable for most business, but it is sensible for utilities and services which make up the public good and for which you want decisions to be made which optimize for the user and not the owner or stockholder. That includes trains, universities, prisons, armies, and so on.
[quote=“KathyPadilla, post:39, topic:101592”]
Socrates[/quote]
And those kids are all liars too!
The Train Drivers’ Union tried to bid for a franchise. specifically, the East coast main line, which was in the process of being privatised for a second time, after the previous franchise collapsed.
During its time as a nationalised service, run directly by the government, East Coast had done very well, improving punctuality and generating over £1billion in profits.
Naturally, the response of the Conservative government was to privatise it again as quickly as possible, as that sort of thing can’t possibly be allowed to be a success.
So you propose a false dichotomy and then assert the answer. To be clear, nationalisation is a highly regulated monopoly. The economics don’t magically change because of public ownership. Moreover, the interests of the politicians ultimately controlling the public service very often are not aligned with the users of the services. If a politician decides roads are best then what hope to rail users have?
The point about supermarkets absolutely is pertinent. Why is nationalisation good for some things but not others? My view is it’s good for very little as it’s been implemented in the UK in the past (they’ve basically become cabals run by union bosses that successive governments end up fighting). Perhaps other countries do it better, in which case, it was an honest question as to how they’ve managed it.
I’m not sure if you’re making a facetious point, but you mean it happened rather than it worked. It was implemented precisely to control the end users, not provide them with an effective service to buy beer, which is exactly my point. In that case, there is an argument to be made about its public health benefit, but that’s not quite the same as providing an effective service.
Why is nationalisation good for some things but not others?
I have no experience of what it isn’t good for, only experience of what it is good for. That’s why I only suggested it as an answer to your narrow question, and not a general dictum.
I lived in England in the 80s before Thatcher decided to privatize everything that wasn’t nailed down, and to me the notion that “private is always better than public” is one of those things that some otherwise rational people have adopted as a weird religion, like Scientology.
So, what else is new?
Ahhh ha I knew it, Socrates was just a grumpy old man! It all makes sense now.
To be clear, that’s not my position at all. I’m merely suggesting there might be a way better than either.
You are right that the purpose of the state management scheme was to control end users, but the end result was good drinks that were harder to get intoxicated on and a nationalised industry that was consistently profitable. Maybe it wouldn’t have worked if the scheme had to serve more than 100,000 people though.
My source for this was my grandad and (indirectly) his friends, who enjoyed the state management beer and were sad to see it replaced by what they thought were inferior drinks. The companies buying the breweries were not interested in continuing with those drinks.
I should repeat that I am not a fan of nationalisation, and prefer co-ops, whether they be customer co-ops, workers self management or some combination of the two.
Fascinating!
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