Then it was a serious error of judgement to pander to centrist republicans than her own base.
4 Likes
So, she’s a hipster policy-maker? She was for “Medicare for All” before it was cool?
1 Like
I think a lot of this question is just understanding that the world has changed so much that much of the Dem leadership is now totally out of touch with its base. The US is moving left because the country is becoming more and more unequal and middle class life less and less sustainable. Asking the winners of this process to understand this is problematic - as far as they can see everyone they know is prospering. I personally suggest kicking them out.
5 Likes
Well, I’m going to exit this thread here, but for the record I think your perspective is ridiculous and, as I suggested, informed more by 30 years of GOP brainwashing, than reality. May your version of reality work out the very best for you.
2 Likes
Sorry but I don’t know of any case in which 3rd-party votes have shifted the political positions of another party. If it got to the point where double-digit percentages were regularly going to a 3rd party, then this might theoretically happen, but so far major parties have been able to pretty much ignore minor parties.
1 Like
If you take issue with the age of his Stockwell quotes would you care to say when the CIA became an organization someone should be proud to be part of? Because last time I checked the CIA was still your best bet for running an American torture and gulag network.
2 Likes
She was within 1% in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisoconis. Withi 2% in Florida. That isn’t a candidate who didn’t have a chance or was only regionally viable, that’s a candidate who lost by a slim margin.
3 Likes
I agree with this statement. That does not change the straight up fact that in the general, not voting for her was a vote for Trump.
2 Likes
Dude, you need to save some ammo for the enemy. Turning our fire on each other is how Trump won. If turning our backs on anyone who does not support every one of our positions writes off any chance to take back the house and senate, then perhaps we should not do so. If your enemies are the centrist dems, you may be a republican!
1 Like
I totally take that point. My only counter is Im 51, and I have my entire life heard people say that the policies I believe in are not feasible here in the US. It might be ok in Canada or in the UK, but here things have to be done differently. I dont believe that and same as with billionaires, there is a price for my support. If we all withhold our support unless we get what we want we will win, and by win I dont mean just the lessor of two evils. I mean a real benefit to working Americans which will make them better off - for the first year since 1985!
2 Likes
Ross Perot elevated the importance of balancing the budget in the Clinton presidency.
Straw man. We’re talking about whether Democratic candidates are “problematic” because they served in the rank and file of the State Department, CIA, or military at an earlier time in their career, or whether the existence of such candidates is a blight on the Party. This has become a talking point for deep state nutcases, but apparently also for some on the far left.
3 Likes
- I don’t think the closeness of the vote in Michigan supports your position.
Michigan “From 1972 through 1988 the state voted exclusively Republican, before becoming part of the ‘blue wall’ that voted Democratic in six consecutive presidential elections from 1992 through 2012. …”
So the candidate in question is the first Dem candidate to lose Michigan since 1988.
- Once again, she got close, in a 2 way race with a reality tv star who boasted about grabbing women in the crotch. To do that she spent a billion dollars more than her opponent.
Is that really something you can defend? I can imagine people supporting her policies (if you are an investment banker for example), but her track record in elections is not so easy to defend.
2 Likes
For what it’s worth, I am 53 and likewise. I am very excited about the energy in the left at this time. But I am afraid that if we start applying purity tests we will waste what is probably a generational opportunity. “Progressive” means something different on Oklahoma than it does in California, and we need those folks in flyover country also. Manchin from WV (my home state) may not be left enough for some, but he is sure as hell more to my liking than pretty much anyone with an R after their name. I have issues that are very important to me, and even the most conservative dem is far closer to correct on them than the most “moderate” republican. Someone upthread had a line I totally stealing. Vote ideals in the primary, but be pragmatic in the general. And sitting it out is not an option, it is a vote for the opposition.
4 Likes
With a 1% swing in three states people would be arguing about her historic win. She outperformed Bill’s 92 percentage in Michigan. That’s a viable candidate. I won’t argue that she ran a good campaign overall and I’m rather vocal about the fact that she ran a garbage campaign in the Great Lakes. I’m only arguing viability. The margins were roughly equal to the fourth largest party in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and the fifth largest in Michigan. That is a close race. Another way to describe a reality TV star is a person who has been on TV for years.
4 Likes
Oh I just CAN’T HELP jumping back in. Sorry for my earlier false statement, I really did try.
The above statement is totally naive of history, when REALLY bad things happened, MUCH worse than anything you have probably lived through, usually aimed at particularly vulnerable populations (do you qualify?) because people spouted the EXACT same line of reasoning. I’m pretty sure Hitler winning power in Germany in democratic elections was one such example – Germany’s left was fractured, and the extreme leftists would not support more moderate left candidates. We know how that one ended up. You’re living in a fantasy if you think your scenario is the only way it plays out. Hint: It usually doesn’t!.
3 Likes
Delaware’s not entirely terrible, but it is very much a “machine politics” state currently dominated by a Democratic Party machine. There’s a smaller Republican machine that is very influential in the lower two counties, which are more agricultural than the industrialized northern part of the state.
I don’t think the Democratic and Republican parties are the same, although admittedly they both share very significant anti-human attributes. What I said was that it just doesn’t make any difference if I vote for either one. My vote is guaranteed to mean nothing if I vote major party in federal election; it will not change any outcome. Had I voted for Trump, Clinton would still have won the state, and had I voted for Clinton, Trump would still have won the nation.
If I give support to a 3rd party that will only make a tiny difference, but a small positive effect is preferable to no effect whatsoever.
Your logic is reasonable, for a person who lives in a safely blue state. For those who live in purple and red states, the same calculus should not apply, I don’t think.
2 Likes
I consider myself a moderate lefty (which in the US might make me pretty hard left). However, one thing I’ve realized over the years is much of the progress of moderate left agenda progress has occurred due to the efforts of people pulling vastly harder to the left than me.
Now, inevitably, they’re unhappy and bitter because they haven’t come close to what they wanted, but they’ve actually accomplished much of my desired social change in a fashion I (and like-minded souls) would never have achieved.
Thus while I understand that unity is important, I think having a small but significant fringe who fight for change I don’t really want is critical for driving the change that I do want.
1 Like
The problem is when it gets outright fascists elected, and actual bad, terrible things happen as a result. Common sense and all.
1 Like
I voted for Bernie in the NH primaries. He won by a 50% margin. In some counties, he received DOUBLE the number of votes she did. That night, the DNC effectively declared it a tie, awarding half the delegate votes to him and half to Clinton- Whom basically every poll showed having less of a chance than him against Trump.
So, forgive me, but every time someone brings up “but she won the popular vote”, I want to kick their goddamned teeth in.
1 Like
