So, “when he gets up we’ll all get up; it’ll be anarchy” is actually a valid statement.
Archy and Kratos are separate. Archy is societal order and Kratos is force. Rejecting one doesn’t necessarily mean rejecting the other. Most anarchists IME are ambivalent to Kratos.
Oh, I certainly don’t think that specific group was a representation of the anarchy movement as a whole. (It was far too small of a sample size as compared to the total population of anarchists!) I just found their group to be more specifically an excuse to hang out and be radicals, instead of just lower-to-middle class young(ish) people without a lot of power.
Come to think on it, though, I’d say the group still had a hierarchical structure. They certainly had a group leader, even if he didn’t officially claim the title. From my perspective here years later, I wonder if they even recognized that themselves?
Another interesting note - there IS are sort of Sovereign nations within the US - Indian nations. Now they aren’t 100% sovereign obviously. They are still beholden to most of the federal and state laws - like income tax. But if I lived in Oklahoma I could get a Potawatomie Nation license plate for my car. Their police officers have sort of US Marshal type jurisdiction when it comes to tribal members. And of course they have used this to work around things like gambling laws in some areas.
Most of the serious crimes listed there had consequences for the perpetrator. Losing your job or getting sent home with a stain on your record is not “essentially walking.”
well, officially you have to do some magical incantations that have to do with sending letters to the government with your name capitalized or something to earn your magical get out of jail free for life card.
feel free to move?
Wimmin and their fuckin’ voices, AMIRITE!!!
Their lack of understanding of the laws is a problem. The reasons why the black civil rights movement in the 60s worked was because they broke unjust laws. This is not what sovereign citizens are about. I’m fine with protesting against unjust laws. I am not with acting as if all laws are unjust because reasons. Especially since they do shit like @bibliophile20 describes above, abusing laws and taking from others isn’t fucking cool. [quote=“JCM, post:161, topic:87917”]
With the largest prison population in the history of the world stocked largely with perpetrators of victimless crimes, the US doesn’t really operate that way.
[/quote]
Then lets end white supremacy, which is the real culprit there.
Anarchy is the mother of Order - P-J. Proudhon
alternatively
Anarchy is Order Without Power - also P-J Proudhon
Founder effect, I think.
But sovereignty of a specific boundary and acknowledging it by other states only work if there is some sort of force to backup the claim. We backed the formation of Kosova, for example, which the Russians strenuously objected to. But us, the EU, and the UN all recognize it as a new country. We’ve shown a willingness to back it in the past, too. Plus there is a serious case to be made for a Kosova being it’s own country, based on relatively recent history of the region and popular local demand among the majority of citizens. No such thing would exist here for a sovereign citizen nation and there is no way that Russians could help enforce it without starting a large scale war with the US, which would not be in anyone’s interest. There’d be no serious territorial claim, based on anything substantial, either. There is no historical, social, or political reason for them to do so and for the Russians to back it, so it won’t happen. I think Putin is fucking with us enough by his challenges to NATO, his backing of Iran and Assad, etc.
This nation-state stuff is stupidly complex, if you ask me.
I think they are more like articles of confederationists, as they don’t really recognize the constitution at all.
Diplomats are a very special case that sort of prove the rule, though, yeah. We allow diplomats that privilege because they are here representing their home country and trying to improve relations. It’s considered common courtesy, I believe to FOLLOW the laws of the country where one is stationed, because that’s part of your job, to represent your country. It tends to be why diplomats who do break local laws tend to get taken off their jobs, because it’s not in the interest of the home country to make waves. There are obvious major exceptions, but if we’re talking ideally, that’s what I’d say about it.
ETA - also, what @L_Mariachi said!
Well we should expand it maybe to - there are two main ways to be your own nation:
and/or
For example, Israel still isn’t recognized by some states, 32 UN member nations, actually. The Confederate states, had they won the war, would have been their own nation, even if the US disagreed.
Sure on both counts. But none of which the sovereign citizen movement could likely muster. Against the US, at least, even with Russian backing. Israel has the benefit of being backed by the US, which really helps.
(mine)
OH yes, my suggestion with Russian and sovereign citizens wasn’t that it would WORK, per se, but it would be a fun distraction and trolling on an international level.
Sure, but is that Putin’s MO really. He views himself as reconstructing a glorious Russian past and I’d suspect he sees himself as something of a new Tzar, yeah? I also think he has more interest in expanding his power base around the Black Sea and into Eastern Europe. Trolling like that wouldn’t do him much good in that respect and could be considered a real threat to his real goals.
