Anti-feminist arguments

Yes, I am giggling.

“Which patriarchy!?”
“What patriarchy!”

Ad nauseum.

I am going back to sillier things :whale2:

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People who actually learn how to debate don’t do it by sticking only to their own precious pet positions. They get good at it by being able to cogently argue as many angles as possible. This also helps to avoid getting one’s emotional buttons pushed. Argumentation is a skill, and the trolls we deal with simply are not very good at it. They strive to provoke reactions without articulating coherent positions of their own.

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No it’s not.

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Or is it - Squid Pro Quo?

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I love you.

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Standing slow clap with cream cheese icing on top. Initially, with utmost sincerity, I started to deconstruct the original post and then realized, I just can’t. Not because I’m incapable, but because it’s exhausting. I’m 44, and every, single day of my life I encounter something, big or small, that reminds me of my status as a woman, conscious or unconscious.

The best post I’ve ever seen on BBS was from a woman who transitioned to a man in adulthood: Why women of color struggle to find a place in fandom

Read it, absorb it. Then imagine that’s your life, 24/7/365, sometimes with the added injustice of religious or racial or other intolerance.

I’m just tired, so very tired of this.

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Can you not see how problematic that statement is? There needs to be a conversation. If feminists are just telling men to shut up and listen, it’s not surprising that they go elsewhere.

This is another problem: the terminology matters a lot more to feminists than anyone else. When someone says that they are not a feminist but do support equality, they are assumed to be talking absurdities. As I mentioned, there are reasons to oppose feminism that do not include the belief that men and women are not equal. When feminists use that argument and then show that they do not believe in equality, other feminists should point out that they do not fit the dictionary definition of feminism. When men point out issues of inequality affecting them, feminists should not claim that it is not feminism’s job to address it. If feminism actually means supporting legal and social equality for women but not men, actually be clear about that.

Do not reply with ad hominems. If you think I am a misogynist, tell me explicitly and explain why. If you are just reacting to criticisms of feminism, consider why people are tired of this.

This is not what I am worried about. I know that some people will make bad arguments, but when they use dishonest research and poor political theory and push this at the organisational level, over decades – that is when it’s not just an individual issue.

Not at all; if a large part of your contribution in the division of responsibilities involved supporting the family financially, this should not be taken for granted just because it’s fungible. The fact that one group takes longer to get over a change than another doesn’t say anything about the relative psychological strength of each group – particularly if one group is disproportionately losing the security of marriage as well as the parenting relationship. Losing some income is not as psychologically damaging at all, but this is where a lot of the focus has been.

Not a problem.

Feminism is not about being a good person – it’s about changing systems to produce equality. Feminists have often discredited the idea that we can have a power differential and just trust the other person to do the right thing (especially at a society level).

The patriarchy is the rule of the fathers. Technically, it doesn’t exist any more in western society. People can marry who they like, get a job or house, move where they like and do many other things without their father’s permission. Where the definition for patriarchy has changed, the new definition needs to be given.

Feminists often talk about the fact that women are treated as chattel in many countries. However, there isn’t a lot of challenging those countries, and more challenging western people who don’t come from that culture or support that system. Out of the worst 25 countries in the world for the gender gap, only two are not majority Muslim and only one of those is less than 40% Muslim (Bhutan). Using those as arguments and then complaining of islamophobia when their record on women’s rights is criticised is not productive. Either stick to the society we live in or follow through.

When feminist organisations are actively hostile toward male victims and place everything onto the Procrustean bed of their politics, this is not straw feminism. Where men are at a disadvantage due to feminist policies and are called whiners for raising the issue, this is not straw feminism.

You see, this is why Marxism is such a poor model for gender. The relationship between men and women individually and collectively is complex and involves roles that have varied throughout history, and are continually being renegotiated. It isn’t a vertical class system.

Not at all. When data is misrepresented or ignored to tell a simplistic story of oppression in one direction, it’s worth pointing out that there is complexity to this. Where men who are affected by this are told that “it’s not their conversation”, they have a right to feel insulted.

This is just a political narrative, and I’ve been in religious communities too long to see it as worthwhile arguing with you on this point. If you a priori see women as always the oppressed group and men as always the oppressors, any evidence will be twisted to fit that. This is why IPV services are not equal and criticisms of divorce law are not taken seriously. The kind of psychobabble about male insecurity and male emotions if they ever bring up issues where they are at a disadvantage is one of the reasons people dislike feminism. But no, the ONLY reason people could dislike it is because they don’t like women.

To everyone: stop trying to get inside people’s minds and psychoanalyse them, and deal with the actual issues. If you can’t answer the questions satisfactorily, admit it. If you are unwilling to accept evidence contradicting your claims, admit it. But don’t act like people only dislike feminists because they’re insecure. There is no lack of insecurity among feminists either.

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I honestly feel like it’s a man’s place to speak up at that point. If a feminist view of the male half of the species feels skewed, no, it’s not necessarily your job to shut up, unless you’re going to accept that men can never know what it’s like to be a woman, while women have no such impediment.

Now naturally, a lot of guys tend to 'splain like jsroberts just did, but…

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With love

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All I needed to know about Jerry Falwell I learned by visiting Lynchburg, VA, and seeing that he literally lived in a mansion on the hill. His show was supported by a bunch of rubes, as was his “University”.

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I don’t mean this in any way but sincerely, but do you truly believe this?

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I am willing to listen to reasonable arguments. I am not willing to listen to people act like discussing issues as a man is mansplaining.

A patriarchy is a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is reckoned through the male line. You have the legal protection to marry or not marry whoever you like, to get a job without your father’s permission, and to live as you please without your father’s approval. You can inherit property, vote and run for office. Yes, I truly believe that we do not have a patriarchy.

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So what word would you use to describe the almost complete dominance of rich white males at the upper echelons of government, industry, finance etc. then?

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There are certainly power inequalities and areas of male dominance that remain unaddressed; rejecting the word patriarchy does not imply that I don’t see that or want it to change (and it certainly doesn’t mean that I only see inequalities or injustices against men). Actually, I don’t completely reject the word – but it should be clear that the definition has changed and western society no longer meets the criteria at all.

Ah. OK. Look, I ain’t got the brain for this definition-trap bullshit games, mate. No offence.

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Dictionary definitions do matter – feminism, patriarchy, oppression and many other words can be very vague and it is important to be clear on what you’re talking about. Asking for a definition gives you a basis for discussing it rather than seeing it as an amorphous filler. I am not completely against the word patriarchy, but it doesn’t bear the weight of the claims made about it. It doesn’t mean that women are always at a disadvantage to men. It doesn’t mean that systems only benefit men at the expense of women, and not sometimes the other way around.

If feminism means equality and that’s all, this should not be that controversial. If there’s a lot of other baggage that is assumed and evidence to the contrary is denied, then people can be pro-equality and anti-feminist.

I am not anti-feminist, but it really depends on what you mean by the word. I am against some forms of feminism.

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People who actually learn how to debate…

Lemme stop you right there. Debates happen in clubs by participants engaging in a formal format with well laid out rules of engagement agreed upon by all. A messageboard/ Facebook post/ Reddit sub/ all of your dealings with the rest of humanity is not that.

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I basically think that if I have problematic views that are factually incorrect, this is a good place to find out and I have adjusted my opinion a lot in the last few years. On the other hand, I get tired of name calling and lazy generalisations, since it’s so much easier to call me an insecure misogynist. This is not about me: I am the main childcarer in my family, and I could use these rationalisations to screw my wife completely. She is often sick and we are looking after her parents too, so they would all be toast. Obviously I wouldn’t do that, but when feminists say that it’s all about the children’s well-being and ignore evidence showing that having a father around is generally beneficial to the children’s well-being, I don’t trust them at all. If my wife can take away the kids after a divorce without a good reason (and “I work” is not a good reason), they are literally not my kids and I’ve just been under some false impression about that.

I do hope that I will be pleasantly surprised, but very few people are actually answering any of the questions. If I just write something on Quora and get a bunch of upvotes and no responses from feminists, that’s not a discussion (although plenty of feminists do read my answers and even follow me, since most of my answers are pretty orthodox feminism). I’ve had 853 views, and not a word of evidence refuting my arguments or the data.