The problem with anti-feminists is that they are really against straw-feminism, which means that to attempt to prove any of their points invalid, you would need to take up defense of and support whatever stupid ideas these people have about feminism in the first place. If a woman were to really advocate for the death of all men in the name of feminism, there is nothing that needs defending if our goals are clear.
The thing that works for me with anti feminist is to actually state the goals I support:
I support equal rights, equal pay, equal representation and specific actions that help achieve any of these. Insofar that I support these goals, I am a feminist.
I of course understand that extreme factions have their reasons for thinking that way, but you don’t discuss the minutae with the uninitiated, If someone has not accepted the truth that these goals are desirable then their anti-feminism isn’t based on rational discourse and only serves to protect their world view…
But this is irrelevant. Is this the worldview you are advocating for? Is this the world you are working for?
This type of reaction is actually natural given the constraints of our world and society. Some number of oppressed people must take the extreme view against their oppressors, doing away with oppression also does away with the extreme point of view.
This is a derail. Bitter men are bitter, Men made these laws after all, Feminists are a convenient target for their bitterness and, especially, their powerlesness, this is the anti feminists real reason for lashing out, they lash out at the powerless females who want equality and not at the powerful men who control their destiny.
This is the other thing that really eats at the feminist hater, that he is in fact a man but that he has no power to exert his manliness and have his woman want for not. He fears that he can not meet her needs and spends his time keeping her expectations low. This is how he fears the power of feminists in a man’s world.
This.
Because if there was a cabal somewhere of evil feminists creating unfair family court laws that favour women over men… well I missed that fucking memo and I would like to join that cabal! I’ll be a fair and balanced feminist law writer, promise!
I’m still cackling over the “address intellectual dishonesty in feminism and yourself” question. LOL How is that a question?
Its only fair! I mean if the patriarchy is a literal group of men somewhere its only fair that there be an evil cabal of feminists writing family law. Quid pro quo! (Its obvious ThePatriachyTM has control of the sex assault codes, but we got teams working together on the pot laws.)
People who actually learn how to debate don’t do it by sticking only to their own precious pet positions. They get good at it by being able to cogently argue as many angles as possible. This also helps to avoid getting one’s emotional buttons pushed. Argumentation is a skill, and the trolls we deal with simply are not very good at it. They strive to provoke reactions without articulating coherent positions of their own.
Standing slow clap with cream cheese icing on top. Initially, with utmost sincerity, I started to deconstruct the original post and then realized, I just can’t. Not because I’m incapable, but because it’s exhausting. I’m 44, and every, single day of my life I encounter something, big or small, that reminds me of my status as a woman, conscious or unconscious.
Can you not see how problematic that statement is? There needs to be a conversation. If feminists are just telling men to shut up and listen, it’s not surprising that they go elsewhere.
This is another problem: the terminology matters a lot more to feminists than anyone else. When someone says that they are not a feminist but do support equality, they are assumed to be talking absurdities. As I mentioned, there are reasons to oppose feminism that do not include the belief that men and women are not equal. When feminists use that argument and then show that they do not believe in equality, other feminists should point out that they do not fit the dictionary definition of feminism. When men point out issues of inequality affecting them, feminists should not claim that it is not feminism’s job to address it. If feminism actually means supporting legal and social equality for women but not men, actually be clear about that.
Do not reply with ad hominems. If you think I am a misogynist, tell me explicitly and explain why. If you are just reacting to criticisms of feminism, consider why people are tired of this.
This is not what I am worried about. I know that some people will make bad arguments, but when they use dishonest research and poor political theory and push this at the organisational level, over decades – that is when it’s not just an individual issue.
Not at all; if a large part of your contribution in the division of responsibilities involved supporting the family financially, this should not be taken for granted just because it’s fungible. The fact that one group takes longer to get over a change than another doesn’t say anything about the relative psychological strength of each group – particularly if one group is disproportionately losing the security of marriage as well as the parenting relationship. Losing some income is not as psychologically damaging at all, but this is where a lot of the focus has been.
Not a problem.
Feminism is not about being a good person – it’s about changing systems to produce equality. Feminists have often discredited the idea that we can have a power differential and just trust the other person to do the right thing (especially at a society level).
The patriarchy is the rule of the fathers. Technically, it doesn’t exist any more in western society. People can marry who they like, get a job or house, move where they like and do many other things without their father’s permission. Where the definition for patriarchy has changed, the new definition needs to be given.
Feminists often talk about the fact that women are treated as chattel in many countries. However, there isn’t a lot of challenging those countries, and more challenging western people who don’t come from that culture or support that system. Out of the worst 25 countries in the world for the gender gap, only two are not majority Muslim and only one of those is less than 40% Muslim (Bhutan). Using those as arguments and then complaining of islamophobia when their record on women’s rights is criticised is not productive. Either stick to the society we live in or follow through.
When feminist organisations are actively hostile toward male victims and place everything onto the Procrustean bed of their politics, this is not straw feminism. Where men are at a disadvantage due to feminist policies and are called whiners for raising the issue, this is not straw feminism.
You see, this is why Marxism is such a poor model for gender. The relationship between men and women individually and collectively is complex and involves roles that have varied throughout history, and are continually being renegotiated. It isn’t a vertical class system.
Not at all. When data is misrepresented or ignored to tell a simplistic story of oppression in one direction, it’s worth pointing out that there is complexity to this. Where men who are affected by this are told that “it’s not their conversation”, they have a right to feel insulted.
This is just a political narrative, and I’ve been in religious communities too long to see it as worthwhile arguing with you on this point. If you a priori see women as always the oppressed group and men as always the oppressors, any evidence will be twisted to fit that. This is why IPV services are not equal and criticisms of divorce law are not taken seriously. The kind of psychobabble about male insecurity and male emotions if they ever bring up issues where they are at a disadvantage is one of the reasons people dislike feminism. But no, the ONLY reason people could dislike it is because they don’t like women.
To everyone: stop trying to get inside people’s minds and psychoanalyse them, and deal with the actual issues. If you can’t answer the questions satisfactorily, admit it. If you are unwilling to accept evidence contradicting your claims, admit it. But don’t act like people only dislike feminists because they’re insecure. There is no lack of insecurity among feminists either.
I honestly feel like it’s a man’s place to speak up at that point. If a feminist view of the male half of the species feels skewed, no, it’s not necessarily your job to shut up, unless you’re going to accept that men can never know what it’s like to be a woman, while women have no such impediment.
Now naturally, a lot of guys tend to 'splain like jsroberts just did, but…
All I needed to know about Jerry Falwell I learned by visiting Lynchburg, VA, and seeing that he literally lived in a mansion on the hill. His show was supported by a bunch of rubes, as was his “University”.
I am willing to listen to reasonable arguments. I am not willing to listen to people act like discussing issues as a man is mansplaining.
A patriarchy is a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is reckoned through the male line. You have the legal protection to marry or not marry whoever you like, to get a job without your father’s permission, and to live as you please without your father’s approval. You can inherit property, vote and run for office. Yes, I truly believe that we do not have a patriarchy.
So what word would you use to describe the almost complete dominance of rich white males at the upper echelons of government, industry, finance etc. then?
