Asian stereotypes in the otherwise excellent Daredevil

I am struggling a bit with this assertion. How are the Asian characters any more or less stereotypical than the Russians? At least they drink tea and seem smart. The Russians were stupid violent thugs that were killed off largely without remorse.

I have only watched through ep 9 so far so maybe I am missing out.

I think the irony here is that to avoid the villains being a group of stereotypical Italian mobsters they created a multicultural gang of villains, Ivy league lawyer, wall street banker, Italian developer, Russian tough guys, Chinese drug manufacturer, black lower level boss, Japanese guy that doesn’t do much, and white guys with tattoos to do the dirty work. If anything it seems like an attempt to pull from almost every stereotypical bad guy so no one group is called out, Every mentioned groups could probably claim the same level of stereotype. In the show’s defense, I think the writers could say its a stretch to say that the show implies that all people of any of the races or creeds are just like the criminal element included in the villainy alliance.

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Maybe assuming that the Asians should be individualistic and have lots of personal drama in their lives is subjecting them to a Western stereotype!

So, TLDR; can I watch it with my wife who is Japanese?

Ad hoc ergo propter hoc. 9/11 happened, zombies are popular, so a correlation is drawn? I’m sorry, this just seems like a ridiculous logical leap.

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Zombies are also a 100 year old stereotype, originally confined to Caribbean/Black cultures. Poor Zombies started off as slaves, forced to do their evil master’s bidding (i.e. I walked with a zombie, etc). Yes post 9/11 one can read all sorts of things into popular culture, and some Fox style pundits do play on the “Hordes of Sub-humans” fears, but I reckon it’s a bit of a stretch to come up with the Hamako theories. I went and had a look at his other dissertations, and he seems to me be ploughing a very particular furrow. I do however agree that Daredevil didn’t really flesh out the non-white villains (but then it is a violent, comic book adaptation!).

Depends. Will she be offended if the only named Japanese character just happens to be a ninja, or just roll her eyes and go with it? Because he’s totally a ninja.

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I don’t think the Asians are particularly stereotyped, problematic or racist, YMMV

Sez the white dude.

Why do white dudes get SO bent out of shape whenever anyone dares criticize the things they enjoy?

Do you find it shocking that there are racist (and sexist) elements in popular media? Even some of the good stuff? Because I don’t. This is not shocking or controversial.

It is okay to realize when something is problematic.

I’m so tired of white men overreacting to legitimate criticism. Calm down. It was stated several times in the article, in the BoingBoing post, and in these comments that Daredevil is quite good. Just not perfect. And that’s not a terrible thing to recognize or talk about.

This is similar to the Joss Whedon post. Someone dares to mention that maybe some things aren’t always hitting the mark, and perhaps we should recognize that, talk about it, and work on that. But nope. Some white dude has to get really upset because someone dared talk about obvious racism and freak the fuck out and claim persecution. Christ. Get over yourself.

It just seems to me someone with your apparent sensibilities shouldn’t be watching this show.

Seriously? Wow.

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Did you not read the article linked? It is all pretty clearly stated. RTFA.

I am struggling a bit with this assertion. How are the Asian characters any more or less stereotypical than the Russians? At least they drink tea and seem smart. The Russians were stupid violent thugs that were killed off largely without remorse.

This is actually a great point, and worth exploring.

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Well, no, because the post George Romero “zombie” is only very, very tenuously connected by a string of “zombie” movies over 40 years* to the African-by-way-of-Haitian phenomenon. They’re not meaningfully similar, really. The Haitian zombie is a figure of pity - the horror is in becoming one, the ultimate slave.

  • Starting off with films about Haitian zombies, and then more and more unconnected films where the term “zombie” was used to refer generically to “monsters” or “people without their own will/under someone else’s control.” Romero’s Night of the Living Dead, which invented the modern “zombie” not only doesn’t refer to “zombies” but was intended to be an unofficial adaptation of Matheson’s vampire novel, “I Am Legend.” Because of the cinematic use of the word “zombie” to refer to entities without will, the label got applied and stuck, adopted by Romero in his subsequent films.
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Ugh, no, that’s not what I said. I’d state the argument, but since you’ve ignored what I said in favor of your little straw-man there, there’s no point.

Do I sound particularly bent out of shape? Because I’m not. I just don’t find the criticism particularly valid. If others do, that’s fine, you’re free to discuss why.

I think there is a huge difference between a character trope and a racist stereotype. Words have meaning. Racism means: “a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race”. Nothing in the portrayal of those characters suggests they were in any way inferior because of their race. In fact as I said above those two characters were the smartest, and most respected of the whole cabal. Goa was the only person who made it out alive and free. Nobu’s death wasn’t given the same weight, not because he was Asian, but because he wasn’t the NEMESIS of the story.

I mean have we forgotten what real racist stereotypes and portrayals look like? These two characters and their portrayals would look right at home in Anime or Japanese/Chinese cinema. Conversely, crude, negative, and/or racist stereotypes would not be. A Japanese ninja is a cliche, but ninjas aren’t racist in the least.
And there is good reason for them to show up, as in the book The Hand was a central foe at one point.

Oh I stand by this. If you think beating people up is torture, and you are watching a show marketed as a “gritty take” on a character that hits people with his hands and sticks all the time, then why would you watch that show?

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I never said that. The fight scenes were the best part. The Nobu fight scene was great. However, the context within the that particular story point was weak. For a man insistent on not killing people, he was weirdly non plussed about Nobu’s death.

The show wasn’t perfect. That’s okay. It was still a great show. This has been repeated. Yet you still get all bent out of shape over respectful and appropriate criticism.

Editing vs starting a new reply:

I never said you said that. You said RTFA and I did. It seems their point was partly that they used stereotype bad guy characters (ninja and dragon lady), and then nit picking plot points. Plot points which probably have everything to do with writers’ skill, and nothing to do with racism. Yes he was non plused, but I think it has more to do with 1) he didn’t intentionally kill him and 2) he wasn’t the main bad guy of the story. I don’t think it has anything to do with not valuing Asian lives.

Of course the show wasn’t perfect. But I can’t fault racism as one of the reasons. I like to say I am empathetic to the real issue of racism in film and tv. I would say it is markedly improved from even a few decades ago. But not every person, especially in this age where everyone’s opinion can be seen by everyone, who complains has a complaint I would agree with. By all means, plead your case, but when I read the title I was like, “Uh - I missed all of that. What are they talking about?”

And I don’t think I’ve gotten bent out of shape in the least. I haven’t even raised my voice in my head, much less start cursing or anything disrespectful.

You’re ignoring context. I edited to add clarification.

Are you an asian? It’s interesting to see people get bent out of shape about this. The Japanese dude is a ninja? Awesome, we love ninjas. Have you seen entertainment for the domestic market? I grew up watching the Japanese ninja version of a telenovela with my solitaire playing grandma (who I think watched just to see people get slashed, and for the hilarious commercials). Frankly, we’re proud of ninjas (and samurai etc…). It’s the reason that the legend has far outlasted a relatively short period in Japanese history. A comparison would be how the Pony Express is legendary (though it was a flash in the pan failure), and how cowboys are very popular in the US to this day (and yes, I know that there are still cowboys/ranchers, but you get where I’m aiming).

Yes, it’s a problem that Asians are still perceived as “the other”. It’s a problem that we’re so underrepresented in popular media. It’s a problem that I grew up in the 70’s & 80’s being told to “go back where I came from” (? So Cal? WTF?) These are all very real and important problems.

But you know what? Sometimes it’s ok for entertainment to simply be entertainment and for it to not be taken too seriously. Yes, it would be better if Daredevil was a bit more racially sensitive, but you know what? Society isn’t quite there yet. And lazy/poor writers are just that. It’s ok to enjoy a Japanese dude being a ninja… Ninjas are cool. It’s ok to be entertained by the stereotype. It’s bad if you somehow internalize it and think that every asian bla bla bla…

If random white dude doesn’t think that it’s terribly racist, I’d probably agree. Super stereotypical yes. Lazy and pandering to the lowest common denominator as far as cultural tropes go, yes. It could be better, but bad entertainment is bad entertainment.

Sometimes progress is made by exploring stereotypes. Sometimes a bit of sharing leads to a greater understanding. And sometimes the pretty racist things can be explored for sheer harmless entertainment in order to break down those stereotypes. I’m not saying that’s what’s happening here with Daredevil. But I will argue that society often advances via baby steps. Sometimes the stereotypes have to get out there first, then the not quite stereotypes, then the genuinely unique stories where the race of the person is incidental.

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Putting this in context for a moment, this series was drawing from comics written in the early 80s when Frank Miller was working on Daredevil. Iron Fist is from the 70s and will probably have more of Madame Gao and include a lot of mystical Kung Fu stuff. Those time periods weren’t exactly known for the sensitivity, but they still formed the basis for some of these characters and their evolution.

Yes, they could have revised the decades of history and tried to do away with the Hand or Kung Fu, but they basically decided to take what was in the comics as a starting point: Ninjas, mystical Kung Fu ladies, and martial arts.

Since neither character was really the focus of the series we got a superficial view, but I still think they left some room for depth with Madame Gao or the Hand in later seasons.

It does seem that peoples were rigidly segmented in the series now that I think about it.

Whilst the characterisations probably weren’t racist in and of themselves, the lack of any diversity outside of the in-groups does seem kind of glaring, now that the issue is being analysed.

Issue? Method? I’m getting sleepy watching the UK election results all the way through.

Did you read the linked article and click the link provided for more info on the author and also note the name and content of the blog the article is being linked from?

Certainly did. So the guy is 1/2 Japanese. Presuming that his experience is everybody’s or that he speaks for everyone is, I dunno, pretty racist. (and so is any assumption that he gets to be everyone’s mouthpiece). My “Japanese in America” experience is not even the same as my buddy who grew up 1/2 a block from me (in a Very Traditional household). And the larger Japanese in America cultural experience is not the same as the Chinese in America, or Thai, or Vietnamese, or whatever… (because you know Asia is just one huge homogenous place ).

I guess the point is that everyone needs to chill the F out. Stereotypes aren’t good, but they’re not the end of the world either. And… by exposing and discussing the stupidity of stereotypes, they tend to get relegated to history.

A big point is that I really don’t feel like Asians need to be defended from this garbage. Orientalist viewpoints aside, Asians aren’t frail little lilies that need to be protected. And, particularly that we don’t need to be defended from these horrible evils by non-asians speaking for us (paternalism much?)[referencing some of the people here, not the author of the original article].
I suspect that some of the loudest voices here aren’t speaking from experience. If you’ve never been called “Gook” and had rocks thrown at you for no reason, or if you’ve never been cornered in a public restroom by a big white guy (as a kid) and been snarled at that “He doesn’t like Chinks”, or been told by someone’s very racist old uncle that “the only good NIP is a dead NIP, that’s what we said in WWII”, then maybe it’s time to tone it down a few notches and maybe do a bit more listening and maybe a bit more asking “what can realistically be done about these issues” than going into rabid attack mode as if you’ve got a dog in this fight.

It’s definitely not that non-asians aren’t allowed to have an opinion on this, or that everybody shouldn’t work together towards a more race neutral future, it’s just that there’s a really fine line between arguing your position and what could be taken as a cultural power grab where you’ve somehow assumed that you’re the perfect person to be doing the arguing for a group that you don’t belong to. (which of course is the classic catch-22 of the socially progressive white person… How to “fight the good fight” without doing the stereotypical white person thing and disempowering the non-white person by co-opting or stealing their “voice”.)

A great example would be everything that’s going on in the US today in regards to african americans and the police. It’s super shitty. It pisses me off. It’s best if I, as a non-african american, listen, empathize, and support. My experience is not their experience, and it would be arrogant for me to think that I had the right to speak for them.

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