I am struggling a bit with this assertion. How are the Asian characters any more or less stereotypical than the Russians? At least they drink tea and seem smart. The Russians were stupid violent thugs that were killed off largely without remorse.
I have only watched through ep 9 so far so maybe I am missing out.
I think the irony here is that to avoid the villains being a group of stereotypical Italian mobsters they created a multicultural gang of villains, Ivy league lawyer, wall street banker, Italian developer, Russian tough guys, Chinese drug manufacturer, black lower level boss, Japanese guy that doesnât do much, and white guys with tattoos to do the dirty work. If anything it seems like an attempt to pull from almost every stereotypical bad guy so no one group is called out, Every mentioned groups could probably claim the same level of stereotype. In the showâs defense, I think the writers could say its a stretch to say that the show implies that all people of any of the races or creeds are just like the criminal element included in the villainy alliance.
Zombies are also a 100 year old stereotype, originally confined to Caribbean/Black cultures. Poor Zombies started off as slaves, forced to do their evil masterâs bidding (i.e. I walked with a zombie, etc). Yes post 9/11 one can read all sorts of things into popular culture, and some Fox style pundits do play on the âHordes of Sub-humansâ fears, but I reckon itâs a bit of a stretch to come up with the Hamako theories. I went and had a look at his other dissertations, and he seems to me be ploughing a very particular furrow. I do however agree that Daredevil didnât really flesh out the non-white villains (but then it is a violent, comic book adaptation!).
Depends. Will she be offended if the only named Japanese character just happens to be a ninja, or just roll her eyes and go with it? Because heâs totally a ninja.
I donât think the Asians are particularly stereotyped, problematic or racist, YMMV
Sez the white dude.
Why do white dudes get SO bent out of shape whenever anyone dares criticize the things they enjoy?
Do you find it shocking that there are racist (and sexist) elements in popular media? Even some of the good stuff? Because I donât. This is not shocking or controversial.
It is okay to realize when something is problematic.
Iâm so tired of white men overreacting to legitimate criticism. Calm down. It was stated several times in the article, in the BoingBoing post, and in these comments that Daredevil is quite good. Just not perfect. And thatâs not a terrible thing to recognize or talk about.
This is similar to the Joss Whedon post. Someone dares to mention that maybe some things arenât always hitting the mark, and perhaps we should recognize that, talk about it, and work on that. But nope. Some white dude has to get really upset because someone dared talk about obvious racism and freak the fuck out and claim persecution. Christ. Get over yourself.
It just seems to me someone with your apparent sensibilities shouldnât be watching this show.
I am struggling a bit with this assertion. How are the Asian characters any more or less stereotypical than the Russians? At least they drink tea and seem smart. The Russians were stupid violent thugs that were killed off largely without remorse.
This is actually a great point, and worth exploring.
Well, no, because the post George Romero âzombieâ is only very, very tenuously connected by a string of âzombieâ movies over 40 years* to the African-by-way-of-Haitian phenomenon. Theyâre not meaningfully similar, really. The Haitian zombie is a figure of pity - the horror is in becoming one, the ultimate slave.
Starting off with films about Haitian zombies, and then more and more unconnected films where the term âzombieâ was used to refer generically to âmonstersâ or âpeople without their own will/under someone elseâs control.â Romeroâs Night of the Living Dead, which invented the modern âzombieâ not only doesnât refer to âzombiesâ but was intended to be an unofficial adaptation of Mathesonâs vampire novel, âI Am Legend.â Because of the cinematic use of the word âzombieâ to refer to entities without will, the label got applied and stuck, adopted by Romero in his subsequent films.
Ugh, no, thatâs not what I said. Iâd state the argument, but since youâve ignored what I said in favor of your little straw-man there, thereâs no point.
Do I sound particularly bent out of shape? Because Iâm not. I just donât find the criticism particularly valid. If others do, thatâs fine, youâre free to discuss why.
I think there is a huge difference between a character trope and a racist stereotype. Words have meaning. Racism means: âa belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular raceâ. Nothing in the portrayal of those characters suggests they were in any way inferior because of their race. In fact as I said above those two characters were the smartest, and most respected of the whole cabal. Goa was the only person who made it out alive and free. Nobuâs death wasnât given the same weight, not because he was Asian, but because he wasnât the NEMESIS of the story.
I mean have we forgotten what real racist stereotypes and portrayals look like? These two characters and their portrayals would look right at home in Anime or Japanese/Chinese cinema. Conversely, crude, negative, and/or racist stereotypes would not be. A Japanese ninja is a cliche, but ninjas arenât racist in the least.
And there is good reason for them to show up, as in the book The Hand was a central foe at one point.
Oh I stand by this. If you think beating people up is torture, and you are watching a show marketed as a âgritty takeâ on a character that hits people with his hands and sticks all the time, then why would you watch that show?
I never said that. The fight scenes were the best part. The Nobu fight scene was great. However, the context within the that particular story point was weak. For a man insistent on not killing people, he was weirdly non plussed about Nobuâs death.
The show wasnât perfect. Thatâs okay. It was still a great show. This has been repeated. Yet you still get all bent out of shape over respectful and appropriate criticism.
I never said you said that. You said RTFA and I did. It seems their point was partly that they used stereotype bad guy characters (ninja and dragon lady), and then nit picking plot points. Plot points which probably have everything to do with writersâ skill, and nothing to do with racism. Yes he was non plused, but I think it has more to do with 1) he didnât intentionally kill him and 2) he wasnât the main bad guy of the story. I donât think it has anything to do with not valuing Asian lives.
Of course the show wasnât perfect. But I canât fault racism as one of the reasons. I like to say I am empathetic to the real issue of racism in film and tv. I would say it is markedly improved from even a few decades ago. But not every person, especially in this age where everyoneâs opinion can be seen by everyone, who complains has a complaint I would agree with. By all means, plead your case, but when I read the title I was like, âUh - I missed all of that. What are they talking about?â
And I donât think Iâve gotten bent out of shape in the least. I havenât even raised my voice in my head, much less start cursing or anything disrespectful.
Are you an asian? Itâs interesting to see people get bent out of shape about this. The Japanese dude is a ninja? Awesome, we love ninjas. Have you seen entertainment for the domestic market? I grew up watching the Japanese ninja version of a telenovela with my solitaire playing grandma (who I think watched just to see people get slashed, and for the hilarious commercials). Frankly, weâre proud of ninjas (and samurai etcâŚ). Itâs the reason that the legend has far outlasted a relatively short period in Japanese history. A comparison would be how the Pony Express is legendary (though it was a flash in the pan failure), and how cowboys are very popular in the US to this day (and yes, I know that there are still cowboys/ranchers, but you get where Iâm aiming).
Yes, itâs a problem that Asians are still perceived as âthe otherâ. Itâs a problem that weâre so underrepresented in popular media. Itâs a problem that I grew up in the 70âs & 80âs being told to âgo back where I came fromâ (? So Cal? WTF?) These are all very real and important problems.
But you know what? Sometimes itâs ok for entertainment to simply be entertainment and for it to not be taken too seriously. Yes, it would be better if Daredevil was a bit more racially sensitive, but you know what? Society isnât quite there yet. And lazy/poor writers are just that. Itâs ok to enjoy a Japanese dude being a ninja⌠Ninjas are cool. Itâs ok to be entertained by the stereotype. Itâs bad if you somehow internalize it and think that every asian bla bla blaâŚ
If random white dude doesnât think that itâs terribly racist, Iâd probably agree. Super stereotypical yes. Lazy and pandering to the lowest common denominator as far as cultural tropes go, yes. It could be better, but bad entertainment is bad entertainment.
Sometimes progress is made by exploring stereotypes. Sometimes a bit of sharing leads to a greater understanding. And sometimes the pretty racist things can be explored for sheer harmless entertainment in order to break down those stereotypes. Iâm not saying thatâs whatâs happening here with Daredevil. But I will argue that society often advances via baby steps. Sometimes the stereotypes have to get out there first, then the not quite stereotypes, then the genuinely unique stories where the race of the person is incidental.
Putting this in context for a moment, this series was drawing from comics written in the early 80s when Frank Miller was working on Daredevil. Iron Fist is from the 70s and will probably have more of Madame Gao and include a lot of mystical Kung Fu stuff. Those time periods werenât exactly known for the sensitivity, but they still formed the basis for some of these characters and their evolution.
Yes, they could have revised the decades of history and tried to do away with the Hand or Kung Fu, but they basically decided to take what was in the comics as a starting point: Ninjas, mystical Kung Fu ladies, and martial arts.
Since neither character was really the focus of the series we got a superficial view, but I still think they left some room for depth with Madame Gao or the Hand in later seasons.
It does seem that peoples were rigidly segmented in the series now that I think about it.
Whilst the characterisations probably werenât racist in and of themselves, the lack of any diversity outside of the in-groups does seem kind of glaring, now that the issue is being analysed.
Issue? Method? Iâm getting sleepy watching the UK election results all the way through.
Did you read the linked article and click the link provided for more info on the author and also note the name and content of the blog the article is being linked from?
Certainly did. So the guy is 1/2 Japanese. Presuming that his experience is everybodyâs or that he speaks for everyone is, I dunno, pretty racist. (and so is any assumption that he gets to be everyoneâs mouthpiece). My âJapanese in Americaâ experience is not even the same as my buddy who grew up 1/2 a block from me (in a Very Traditional household). And the larger Japanese in America cultural experience is not the same as the Chinese in America, or Thai, or Vietnamese, or whatever⌠(because you know Asia is just one huge homogenous place ).
I guess the point is that everyone needs to chill the F out. Stereotypes arenât good, but theyâre not the end of the world either. And⌠by exposing and discussing the stupidity of stereotypes, they tend to get relegated to history.
A big point is that I really donât feel like Asians need to be defended from this garbage. Orientalist viewpoints aside, Asians arenât frail little lilies that need to be protected. And, particularly that we donât need to be defended from these horrible evils by non-asians speaking for us (paternalism much?)[referencing some of the people here, not the author of the original article].
I suspect that some of the loudest voices here arenât speaking from experience. If youâve never been called âGookâ and had rocks thrown at you for no reason, or if youâve never been cornered in a public restroom by a big white guy (as a kid) and been snarled at that âHe doesnât like Chinksâ, or been told by someoneâs very racist old uncle that âthe only good NIP is a dead NIP, thatâs what we said in WWIIâ, then maybe itâs time to tone it down a few notches and maybe do a bit more listening and maybe a bit more asking âwhat can realistically be done about these issuesâ than going into rabid attack mode as if youâve got a dog in this fight.
Itâs definitely not that non-asians arenât allowed to have an opinion on this, or that everybody shouldnât work together towards a more race neutral future, itâs just that thereâs a really fine line between arguing your position and what could be taken as a cultural power grab where youâve somehow assumed that youâre the perfect person to be doing the arguing for a group that you donât belong to. (which of course is the classic catch-22 of the socially progressive white person⌠How to âfight the good fightâ without doing the stereotypical white person thing and disempowering the non-white person by co-opting or stealing their âvoiceâ.)
A great example would be everything thatâs going on in the US today in regards to african americans and the police. Itâs super shitty. It pisses me off. Itâs best if I, as a non-african american, listen, empathize, and support. My experience is not their experience, and it would be arrogant for me to think that I had the right to speak for them.
