Congratulations. At the peak of your political career, the only thing you have to talk about is who has sex with whom.
But there are different levels genetic predisposition. Not all alcoholics can just âchooseâ to stop drinking. That is a terrible over-simplification. Genetics is not just about some code. It is about genetic expression. In the presence of certain factors (chemical, biological, outside pressures) genes can express very different things. The level to which some conditions manifest can be based on if you carry a copy of a gene from one parent or both.
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I get what you are saying, and you are a regular around here, so I know you arenât trolling. But I still find it kind of offensive on certain levels. I donât think thatâs what you were going for, and I tried several times to articulate it in a paragraph or two, but I donât think I can do it without going all over the map. And my rankling at it is probably more because it was in response to @spazmodius93âs trolling comment. Come to think of it, maybe you were begin sarcastic to his trolling? I donât know. He has been a member of this message board for all of half a day and seems to have signed up with the expressed purpose of trolling this thread.
@spazmodius93, not all gay men have anal sex. I know, thatâs hard to believe. And many gay men are in âas monogamousâ a relationship as many straight men. The Internet has allowed many straight people to let their freak flags fly, so we are finding out that they can be just as âlicentiousâ as gay men, they just still donât talk about it. I grew up watching almost an entire generation of men die, many who got HIV before anyone even knew what it was. So I hope youâll understand that I think your a piece of shit for taking the time to gleefully try and make the case gay=slut=HIV+. Fuck you, you are actually worse than Rick Perry.
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What culture did YOU grow up in? Are you for real? Do you think kids are STILL contemplating suicide because of this accepting culture? Did you grow up in the 80âs? I did, and it was not accepting, and I lived close to New York City. Do you even have a clue what it was (and still can be) like for a gay person in the boonies? You philosophize around and around about something you seem to know nothing about.
And you are doing exactly the same thing. Are you gay and did you grow up in a rural area where you actually though you were the only one like you? No? Then I suggest you donât presume to know what those people thought. Have you ever even talked to someone with that experience before you decided that it didnât actually exist? I knew I was attracted to men as long as I remember, Iâm talking 7-8 years old at least, before I had the words to understand or describe what I felt. And shortly after that I knew, without being told, that society didnât accept that. I spent years telling myself I COULDNâT be gay. I dated women, even fell in love with one. But I am 100% gay. Please provide one shred of evidence or a link to a study of anything you are trying to claim.
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Thank you for speaking out on this issue.
In reality though, the real answer to whether a man is âborn gayâ or âchoosesâ his orientation is simply:
Who the fuck cares. Leave them alone, that is their own business, and we have more important things to talk about.
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Of course. As Mahmoud Ahmadinejad once noted âThere are no gays in Iranâ. The thing is though that there are gays, even in Iran. People get hanged for homosexual activity on a fairly regular basis. (not going to list citations as youâre perfectly capable of googling). This is a culture similar to your âexclusively heterosexualâ environment, and yet they still end up finding homosexual people to execute (and people willing to risk death to be gay).
And I donât think that I fail to understand anything as far as the nature of basic human desires and attractions. Even in a place like Iran, where the penalty is death, where there is no âout or closetedâ because of course there are no gays, somehow these people keep deciding to attempt to buck the system, even at risk of their own lives.
I do think that you underestimate how genetically programmed certain thoughts and behaviors can be.
A really bad comparison that shows the innate programming that genetics can cause would be labrador retrievers (yes, I know not sexual preferences etcâŚ, but bear with me). Iâll bet that everyone who has had a lab has taken their pup, with no prior exposure to a tennis ball, and has been delighted when the pup chases the thrown ball down and brings it back. This is not a behavior seen across all canines (yeah, my shepherds have always had to learn to retrieve by playing with retrievers, and have had no innate instinct to retrieve). This is a strong âpredilectionâ to retrieve that strangely travels down the genetic lines of retrieversâŚ
I think fundamentally thereâs an issue with semantics/definitions going on in this argument though. I think what you see as some sort of limited âpredilectionâ, most people currently accept as a more fundamental aspect of oneâs inherent nature. If thatâs what you believe, Iâm certainly not going to convince you otherwise.
And on a similar note, Iâm certainly not going to be convinced to your side of the argument through petulant insults and randomly bolded words. (hint: When you canât argue civilly, and resort to ad hominem attacks, thatâs when itâs obvious that youâre losing the argument.)
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No actually, twin studies have been quite consistent in showing that separated-at-birth twins share significantly more in common when studied years later than two non-related children raised in the same home.
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Did they ever hang anyone for being a homosexual in those days? So then, apparently, it is possible for someone to realize theyâre gay despite growing up in an âexclusively heterosexualâ environment.
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No, I said none of those things ever stopped people being gay. Not all people ever. You just said that, not me. Thatâs a very long screed of assertions youâve implied Iâve made from a one-line response. There have been homosexual people throughout history, no matter how repressive the culture they find themselves in, and yet they still express that sexuality. Even if they will be executed for it if caught. Yes, maybe some will never figure out what it is that doesnât make them feel right, given those kinds of social mores, but, some will, and do, and always have.
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The intent of my comment was simply this: No matter what you personally think of gay people, there is no rational reason to oppose marriage equality. The debate is usually framed as a âliberal vs. conservativeâ issue but even neocon nimrods like Perry could find plenty of reason to support it if they took a few moments to examine their position.
Think homosexual relationships are perfectly natural and every bit as valid as heterosexual relationships? Then you should support marriage equality so they have the same legal rights as everyone else (whether they choose to exercise them or not).
Think homosexual promiscuity is a scourge that spreads disease and damages the fabric of American society? Then you should support marriage equality since it extends a social practice which encourages committed monogamous relationships.
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Bullshit. Your genetics donât put the bottle in your hand and magically force the booze down your throat.
Iâm sick of this culture of denial of responsibility. âItâs not my fault Iâm an alcoholic! Itâs my genetics!â. No, thatâs absurd! Your genetics donât put a gun to your head and force you to drink. You choose to drink, or you choose not to.
People are creatures of free will and choice. Yes, we can have bad habits. Yes, we can have chemical imbalances. Yes, we can have society training and cultural indoctrination and peer pressure driving us to act in certain ways. But these are all mere influencing factors. Human willpower can and routinely does overcome them.
No matter your genetics, no matter your conditions, you can always choose how you are going to act if you only apply the will to do so. You can break bad habits, you can beat addictions, you can avoid developing them in the first place, et cetera. You can even change your wants and desires over time.
Which is not to say that you should do so in every situation. Alcoholics, certainly, have a moral obligation to change their behavior and defy their predilections towards drinking in excess. But other behaviors have no such cause for compunction.
Oh to be perfect in your perfect little world. I donât give a rats ass about your lame âculture of denial of responsibilityâ BS. In the real world there are people who, once they have had certain drugs, will never truly recover. Genetic or not, physical addiction wil continue to claim people every day. Go to a libertarian gathering and help each other pat yourselves on the back. Youâll feel better.
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But what on earth makes those people think they can, even in the confines of that world-view save you by force? Even if you accept what they nominally teach itâs a ridiculous idea, but of course most of them donât.
For instance âAnd again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.â Note the âAGAINâ because they didnât get it the first time. Thatâs Jesus, not some old testament law later modified or rescinded even during the old testament, and no one suggests we should âsaveâ the rich from hell by redistributing their money. Never mind that whole nonsense about not judging others. In fact there are very good reasons perfectly consistent, with their worldview. To allow gay marriage and equal treatment for all, but they want none of those either. You go around talking like that and someone will nail you to a tree.
Also amusing how many people will proclaim loudly they believe in the literal truth of everything in that book, and suddenly have an hour explanation about how those two, very clear statements, were in fact some vast metaphor that meant something else completely. Yet a single line out of a list of laws that they donât believe they are bound by is suddenly the most important thing in the book. (Christians generally believe OT dietary rules donât apply to them for boring and way off topic reasons.)
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As an athiest who really likes jesus,
The reason that Christians believe that OT dietary restrictions donât apply to them is not at all boring.
For thousands of years Jews we forced to distance themselves from people they lived and worked day to day with, enabling their persecution. (this happened after the fact, but google spanish hams and religion) Jesus, or constantine, said that Jesusâ sacrifice fufilled all their traditional sacrifices, thus allowing an empire to absorb a population and prevent itâs eventual demise. Awesome.
Very true, I find that sort of thing very interesting. Still canât understand the incredible lack of acceptance of gays on the part of the at least allegedly Christian right. When he was still alive, my father explained to me why, that while he didnât approve of homosexuality on a personal, religious level, and I donât believe he ever did. He didnât believe the government, or anyone else should discriminate against them, firstly because even if you accept that itâs a sin, thereâs really nothing to differentiate it from other sins. (He who lusts is an adulterer, he who hates a murderer etc.) So it doesnât make sense from that perspective, the first amendment is supposed to ensure separation of church and state, so being a sin doesnât give the government a right to discriminate against anyone on that basis. As a practical matter youâre just making people want, need or feel they have to lie about something in order to get their fair share, never a good idea in any context I can think of.
Those people disappoint me immensely simply because they either clearly donât believe the things they say, or donât understand their implications, and then they want to be President for example. I donât care if the guy who works on my car has internally consistent logical beliefs, or worships some obscene blasphemy, only if he fixes my car and doesnât cheat me. But ask me to put you in a position of leadership and to accept the idea that you are going to lead the country with your mind and philosophy, you should check to make sure itâs not obviously stupid and inconsistent first. Theoretically Iâd be happy to vote for someone with any given religion, or lack thereof, but they should make some effort to convince me that they have actually thought it through, and appear to believe it at least.
The last President of the USA who has ever really done anything in his life to convince me that heâs sincere in his faith is Jimmy Carter. At face value he has the same sort of religious affiliation as most of the idiots who want to run on the Republican ticket in '06, but seems to have come to have come to a very different set of conclusions.
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âŚwhat?
Iâm honestly dumbfounded by your response.
Physical addiction is an important factor, but to suggest that it completely overrides oneâs will not to partake (or even unwilling inability to partake due to outside intervention) is absurd. A raging alcoholic in the grips of physical addiction still has the power - and more importantly the moral obligation - to combat that addiction and get clean, even if that means surrendering themselves into the guardianship of others.
I donât see how that concept elicits such an angry, personally insulting response. I donât see why you immediately attribute it to Libertarianism (disclosure, I am very much not a libertarian), especially as to my (admittedly shallow) understanding, that school of thought adamantly rejects outside intervention and restrictions of individual ârightsâ (such the ârightâ to drink as much and as hard as you want, and damn anyone who tries to stop you, especially the state or federal government).
The Christian community needs to be encouraged to police themselves on this issue. There are quite a few people who do not want this man to be the voice of their religion.
Speaking as an ex-user, it really isnât that simple, âmoral obligationâ be damned.
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I never said it was simple, nor easy.
I said it was a substance abuserâs responsibility. But I suppose if youâre willing to say âbe damnedâ to doing the right thing (a.k.a. âmoral obligationâ), then appealing to responsibility isnât going to mean much to you either.
Of course, no one starts out as a drug abuser. They know before they ever even use the substance that theyâre taking a risk. No one âaccidentallyâ experiments with drugs - they just make bad choices and then have to live with the consequences.
Even partaking of socially accepted substances like alcohol is a choice. âOh, but thereâs so much peer pressure!â Bullshit. Why not go jump off a bridge, as the saying goes?
First, a person can live their entire life never drinking a drop and not suffer for it in any meaningful way,peer pressure be damned. Second, even if a person chooses to drink, they can choose to do so responsibly, having a wine or beer with dinner maybe, or having a few drinks at a party - behaviors which do not result in alcoholism.
Itâs only when people start relying on a substance that any idiot can tell them is physically and mentally addictive to âhelpâ with their personal demons that they become alcoholics. They donât just wake up one day after having a couple beers the night before as a hopeless addict.
People choose to crawl inside a bottle to cope with their own personal unhappiness and dissatisfaction. They have a rough day and think âGoddamn, I really need a drinkâ. No, they damn well donât, and unless theyâve lived their whole lives under rocks, they know in advance that trying to drink away their unhappiness is going to lead them straight down the road to hell.
But in their minds theyâre just so unhappy, and they just want a little relief, and they want so badly to believe theyâre somehow special, that drinking for emotional reasons is harmless, that they could never become an addict, that being an alcoholic is something that happens to other people.
So they do it anyway. And as their life falls apart, as they start to hurt the people around them, they blame anyone and anything they can think of except for one thing: themselves. Itâs never the alcoholics fault. Convenient, no?
It must be nice to be so clever and perfect. You must be very proud.
Iâd better tell my friend, who suffered years of sexual and physical abuse that the reason sheâs got drug problems is sheâs just not fucking moral enough. Or go round and yell at the homeless junkies in the shop doorways up the street that theyâre just weak and irresponsible, never mind how they got there. Not worth asking, theyâre just not prepared to âdo the right thingâ. Or the sex-workers with drug issues because they were trafficked and heroin was used to control them (this is a real thing, BTW. I have friends who deal with such cases. It is heartbreaking).
Seriously, you do. not. have. a. clue.
Iâll let someone else step in and school you, because this is gonna touch a nerve, and mods will no doubt eat my reply to your inevitable response. Iâm done.
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