Book discussion - The Quarry - Discussion of Chapter 2

[chgoliz]

@Raita

Kit’s narratives about motorways and random traffic jams

Which was followed by the Haze example I mentioned above. Most people really do drive through life unaware of how their smallest actions affect the people around them. I thought it was a nice touch.

[OtherMichael]

@jlw

I feel like Banks’ descriptions/integration of technology in the book are terrible.

The description of Grayzr is a bit over the top, it seems like a cross between Google, MLM, and Heaven’s Gate. Which is what I love about it. It’s not MicroSerfs, but that was 15 years ago. Things have gotten weirder, and the hype has gotten hypier, at the same time the industry believes it has a more objective view of itself. From the outside, this is what Google looks like to a lot of us (and I work as a programmer in an insurance-related industry. Totally boring tech. We get free coffee and popcorn. Woo. Actually, I love the popcorn, and coffee is pretty good).

I really haven’t seen much technology beyond the supermarket and mentions of the MMORPG and the missing VCR.

---

As far as Kit being a crappy Dad, are their any good dad’s in Banks’ fiction? IThe only non-genre Banks I’ve read is The Wasp Factory… not a good dad. In none of the genre works I’ve read has there actually been a parent that I can recall. An eternally pregnant women, carrying the fetus for 40 years. That’s as close as I can recall.

[chgoliz]

@OtherMichael

An eternally pregnant women, carrying the fetus for 40 years.

Holy moly: didn’t know he wrote horror stories!

[daneel]

@OtherMichael

ut it. It’s not MicroSerfs, but that was 15 years ago

20

[chgoliz]

@Donald_Petersen

Just the fact that he teases Kit about who his mother may have been is, not to put too fine a point on it, utterly monstrous. Kit has no concept, really, of how cruel that was. Guy treats him like a pet, and not a valued one at that. Weirdly, I didn’t get really angry about that until just now, in retrospect.

That is an excellent point. It’s the first thing Kit tells us about himself, which means it’s foremost in his sense of self-identity (and why wouldn’t it be? It’s fundamental in every sense of the word):

This is probably because I've had to think about who I am and who I'm not, which is something your average person generally doesn't have to do. Your average person has a pair of parents, or at least a mother, or at least knows roughly where they fit into all that family business in a way that I, for better or worse, don't.

This grabbed me instantly when I started reading the book, because in almost all discussions or portrayals of parents and children (real or fictional) there is the unacknowledged baseline that children are chattel and the parents have the right to lay out all the boundaries, when actually it is harmful to children – who are human beings too, after all – to have their identities played around with so that the parent(s)’ perception of reality takes precedence over the truth. Guy has spent Kit’s entire life joking about the boy’s very ORIGINS in public: his mother, his conception, his arrival in Guy’s life. As you say, this is cruel. A neurotypical child might well have responded by doing drugs, acting out violently, or committing suicide. The only reason Kit hasn’t been horribly damaged by Guy’s emotional cruelty is because he can’t understand the depths of the parental betrayal.

[anon73629133]

@chgoliz

If Kit does “too much thinking” and has too much awareness of what’s going on around him, then most of the rest of them don’t do enough.

I think this gets at why I didn’t bristle when JLW said he found Kit to be “fairly unbelievable.” For someone who is supposed to have difficulty socializing, Kit seems far and away the most socially conscious, and courteous, of the lot.

Perhaps that’s the message Banks will try to convey, that those who get labeled as “different” are not really that “different.” Or, perhaps it’s foreshadowing of a plot twist where Kit’s social skills fail him in a plot-pivoting kind of way.

Those observations are not to detract from the fact that most are finding Kit like-able, which he is, and that he has relateable quirks and passions, which he does.

[Raita]

@funruly

I think this gets at why I didn’t bristle when JLW said he found Kit to be “fairly unbelievable.” For someone who is supposed to have difficulty socializing, Kit seems far and away the most socially conscious, and courteous, of the lot.

Being aware of something doesn’t mean being good at it. Kit can analyze social situations and relations very well, but that’s because he has to; it doesn’t come naturally to him like it does to most people. Most people are social naturally, which can mean being kind or being a dick, being very talkative or very quiet - that’s different from the difficulties autistic people have with social situations. Autistic people can have wonderful social skills, but you can bet it’s the work of a huge amount of practicing and that they’re working themselves crazy with all the analyzing and play-acting they have to constantly do.

[Mindysan33]

Sorry I’m late to this chapter party all - just got back from the arctic wastelands of Louisville! I’ll read tonight or tomorrow and post some thoughts on the chapter tomorrow!

[anon73629133]

@Raita

Being aware of something doesn’t mean being good at it.

But Kit is good at it, so far. He’s maintained grace in the midst of some really unpleasant interpersonal situations.

[noahdjango]

@Raita

from now on in new discussion threads I will post a list of members so they get pinged. I can only tag 10 people in a post

as long as you post a link to the next thread into the old thread, you don’t have to ping everyone. it’s a lot easier on you, and it is considered standard protocol and etiquette in other forums I’ve been on. @funruly knows what I’m talking about; he crossposted this page into the chapter 1 thread seemingly right after he posted here; good looking out, fun.

[quote=“penguinchris, post:14, topic:52243”]
can I assume we’re all agreeing that spoiler tags are only used for actual spoilers, and not in any situation that may be confusing?
[/quote] I hope so. I’m reading chapter-by-chapter, too.

as for the book itself, not much to add that others haven’t already said; the dynamic between Guy’s friends seems like more of the same, nothing really happens. But the bit about Kit on his walks reminded me greatly of my boyhood home and all those memories came flooding back. Sycamore. One word, and I was walking that land again.

[Elusis]

@OtherMichael

It’s the tape

Have been offline with computer issues for about 5 days, popping to bed soon, but just wanted to say - the obvious telegraphing of this particular MacGuffin is getting on my nerves something fierce. WILL KIT FIND THE TAPE??? the plot cries out. I hope he finds it in chapter 3 and then… takes off somewhere, or throws it into the quarry, or something, so we can have a book about something more interesting.

[penguinchris]

@Raita 's take on your comment was good and I’ll probably be reiterating a bit but I’d like to add some more here because what you say here…

@funruly

Kit seems far and away the most socially conscious, and courteous, of the lot.

…this is how many so-called high-functioning autistic people often feel about themselves, without entirely realizing how other people often perceive them as the opposite. It’s because someone like Kit (or Raita or myself) has had to analyze and learn the rules of every type of social interaction deliberately (well, a lot does actually come relatively naturally or is learned naturally, of course). So as Kit describes in the book at some length, partially with Hol’s help, he’s figured out exactly what to do in various situations and basically runs an algorithm in his head with pre-recorded responses to various inputs.

But, actually doing that - every time, much less successfully every time - is a totally different thing from simply being aware of having to do it. Continuing with the computer programming metaphor, it’s very, very buggy code and is prone to random crashing or not even starting. I commented in chapter 1 about often not realizing I’d been rude until later - that I am able to critically examine my past actions and make realizations like that is a learned skill in itself. Most of the time, I am actually oblivious to how I am perceived by others (I do of course do other things besides later reflection to help with this).

I suspect that Kit doesn’t really do that very much, and is largely oblivious most of the time - the fact that it takes effort for him to realize that he smells bad is a pretty major indicator of that. So considering that he is the narrator, you have to expect that he’s leaving out a lot about what other people think about him, because he not only doesn’t know what they think but doesn’t even know that they had any thoughts about him in the first place. And he’s portraying himself as probably more socially conscious and courteous than he actually would seem to others.

So I mean, you can say that not much has happened in the book so far, and that it’s all very cliche - both true. But it is actually a rather intricately done character study, with a whole lot going on separate from the actual plot. I too am not at all hooked by the story or the other characters or even the setting - the main thing here is the character study of Kit, a type of character you don’t see many first-person narratives from. Perhaps Banks hasn’t yet done as good a job of explaining the mind of an autistic person as some of us thought edit: or made it compelling enough for a general audience (or a mutant audience).

[OtherMichael]

@noahdjango

@funruly knows what I’m talking about; he crossposted this page into the chapter 1 thread seemingly right after he posted here; good looking out, fun.

That was after I requested pings, as I hadn’t even known that the Chapter 1 discussion existed.

Now that we are in the middle of the discussion, linking the threads might work, yes.

[Raita]

@penguinchris

So I mean, you can say that not much has happened in the book so far, and that it’s all very cliche - both true. But it is actually a rather intricately done character study, with a whole lot going on separate from the actual plot. I too am not at all hooked by the story or the other characters or even the setting - the main thing here is the character study of Kit, a type of character you don’t see many first-person narratives from. Perhaps Banks hasn’t yet done as good a job of explaining the mind of an autistic person as some of us thought edit: or made it compelling enough for a general audience (or a mutant audience).

This (and everything else you said above) is really well said and you put into words how I feel about the book and the character of Kit as well. Seeing how Kit is developed as a character is what drives me personally forward with this book - a lot of the other aspects are fairly standard, not that there aren’t other interesting bits, and I’m still hoping for some of the characters to turn out more well-rounded.

I’m really not in the right state to explain myself very well or in length (I go up and down, and now I’m really down), so now I can just say: what @penguinchris said.

[OtherMichael]

I’m intrigued by the idea that Kit is an unreliable narrator. I hadn’t considered that.

I tend to trust my narrators. Tsk tsk tsk.

[OtherMichael]

Any time a narrator asks me to loan than 5 bucks? I do it! Not a second’s thought!

 

Nick Carraway and Humbert Humbert still owe me. To his credit, Holden Caulfield grew up and paid me back. Not with interest, but he did bring a bottle of wine for my wife.

[Elusis]

@Raita

Kit’s narratives about motorways and random traffic jams as well as the self-checkout machines was enjoyable and interesting to read and even if I don’t relate to those specific ideas, it gives me a nice tingling feeling in my stomach to know that there are others who think so deeply about such mundane things. I’m left wondering how someone who is not on the spectrum finds these parts. Do they seem interesting or boring, do you look for things to relate to or just imagine being inside someone else’s mind?

I find them interesting as a character study. I occasionally get frustrated by wanting the narrative to move on, but I’m enjoying getting to know Kit as a person.

Thinking about that makes me reflect on the comments so far on the rest of the group, that their characters leave a lot to be desired (in terms of Banks’ fleshing them out, not in terms of their moral qualities per se). So far they’re tropes, and not great ones at that. Is this Banks as author? Or is this Kit as narrator? Even Hol, whom we know more about thanks to her closeness with Kit, is really just outlines - she’s a woman, who… works in radio and cares about Kit.* But is that Banks holding off on giving us more insight into her, or falling into a typical male author trap when writing women? Or is that the limits of Kit’s perceptions of her?

I really love your comments on Kit overall, by the way.

*Have we passed the Bechdel test yet?

@penguinchris

I was wondering about this too because in the discussion for chapter 1 some people said they found Kit a little infuriating. It’s got to be way worse this time because I found some of it a little infuriating myself, heh.

What I found frustrating about him in Chapter 1 was the frequent reflexive references to how clever he is and how boring everyone else is - it’s Banks building the character, and it’s actually somewhat endearing to learn about how he’s developed work-arounds for various neurotypical modes of expected communication, but it edges toward a kind of geek narcissism that I deal with a certain amount in the real world and online that is quite frustrating. (And which, probably, contains some elements of painful self-reflection for me - my Achilles heel as a teacher is that I can get very aggravated when others don’t learn the way I do, or as fast as I do).

[Elusis]

@chgoliz

They’re there because Guy is about to die and his house is about to be packed up and they really really really want to know where that videotape is so they can destroy it.

And yet, for a bunch of people who supposedly really want to know where this thing is, they don’t seem very motivated to actually find it. It’s Kit who’s bothering to go through stuff. This is part of why it frustrates me as a MacGuffin.

[OtherMichael]

You can’t admit to anybody else that you’re actually trying to find the thing. Because you’d be breaking the implied social contract they’ve developed that says the tape is unimportant. You have to be furtive about it. Either everyone finds it together, and they can simultaneously murmur it’s unimportance, or they can tar-n-feather the villain who grabs it for his/her own nefarious singleton purposes.

I’m guessing.

[Elusis]

Hmm, interesting theory.