California city bans smoking and vaping in apartments

boing
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I agree about motivations and biases, but the letter you linked to is by Stanton Glantz, a disgraced, former UCSF “researcher” who, besides being responsible for UCSF having to settle a sexual harassment suit, has had one of his papers recently retracted for (what seems to me, at least) explicit dishonesty…

However, when Rodu obtained the federal data, he found the majority of the 38 patients in the study who had heart attacks had them before they started vaping — by an average of 10 years earlier. In his letter to the editors, Rodu called Glantz’s findings “false and invalid.”

…while another paper he co-authored is being recommended for retraction due to its rather obviously bad conclusions.

Clive Bates’ has no demonstrable conflicts of interest and his reputation is untarnished, certainly, at least compared to Glantz’s.

I would hope any respirologist would recommend vaping for their patients who smoke and have failed to quit using other methods, considering all the evidence for improved respiratory health from switching to vaping from smoking.

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Darn he seemed like a nice guy years ago… Guess that’s what I get for not following recently. Well let’s just ignore him shall we…

I still stand by my stance (ok thats a wierd sentence but bear with me it’s late :wink: ) that vaping is not proven safe. Yes it is likely safer than smoking but safer does not equal “safe” and we need to consider that there will be differences between short and long term use.

Also re Clive Bates my concern is that he is not a scientist. Until I see the same strong opinions from researchers I remain a skeptic. (I am honestly willing to be swayed but I want to see peer reviewed primary research)

I won’t jump topics too much but I’ll share why I have many concerns about vaping evidence that is not from peer reviewed literature. Philip Morris, for example, owns a share of Juul so they benefit from both sides, and they are constantly up to no good with influencing kids and other misinformation. The argument that fighting ecigarettes helps tobacco companies can become very fuzzy in this situation especially when things are not completely transparent.

If ecigarettes are all that work for you (well anyone really) among the smoking cessation products that’s great. Stoping smoking is important. But picking up long term vaping is definitely not as good as stopping all together which is preferable from a public health perspective.

So long story short and going way back in the topic. I feel that second hand vaping exposure is best avoided and health Canada’s policies reflect this.

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Absolutely agree that vaping isn’t safe. My perspective is that of harm-reduction. Riding a motorcycle to the beach wearing a helmet isn’t safe, but it’s safer than without the helmet (seatbelts are another, perhaps too obvious example). Right now, the consensus among tobacco harm reduction scientists is that vaping is at least 95% safer than smoking.

It’s important to remember that public health officials like Clive Bates and the authors of this paper are relying on the latest science to come to their conclusions. And there is, in the technical parlance, a veritable butt-ton of science on this issue to sift through!

Also, most vaping companies are not owned by tobacco companies. Juul has the money to make it harder for smaller companies to comply with regulations that are all about public perception and nothing to do with real harm (e.g. advertising to kids is practically non-existent and vaping among kids dropped by a third last year, meaning an increasingly tiny percentage of kids vape more than 5 days a month, and those that do are current or former smokers). In my opinion (which is the consensus opinion of tobacco harm reduction scientists), anything that makes it harder for smokers to switch to vaping (including flavored vapes) will result in more deaths via smoking.

As far as second-hand vapor goes, the science is very clear that it is safer than things like incense and scented candles, and there’s no evidence at all that exhaled vapor has more toxins than indoor air found safe by OSHA guidelines.

Finally, there is the perspective that people shouldn’t vape at all, but this doesn’t take into consideration the fact that nicotine, which is no more harmful than caffeine, helps a lot of brains work in a way which the owners of those brains find to improve the quality of their lives. Whether it’s a serious mental health issue, like bipolar or schizophrenia, or simply a variant of ADHD or minor depression, nicotine, like caffeine, makes life better for plenty of people, and vaping is the delivery system that works for them. Hopefully, in time, it will become even safer than it already is.

Anyway! Sorry for rambling, thanks for your patience and engagement, and hope you have a very Happy New Year!

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There is in many places in CA now to my understanding, that’s why I found this really egregious.

I’m not sure if it applies in this specific instance but if this continues it means that people cannot physically smoke anywhere including in their own homes.

I realize this is about shared dwellings, but that’s kind of the point- it will affect people of means who can only afford to rent.

I understand people not wanting smokers around them everywhere- but its unrealistic to ban people from doing something everywhere. It wont work.

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Not just there. I don’t know if any blanket bans, but there are places where one would have to walk really far to be able to smoke and not be breaking some rule.
The public housing authorities (PHAs) in my state have banned smoking indoors, but most of the properties (around me, at least) have outdoor “smoking shelters” where people can go sit in a covered gazebo and smoke. Kind of the best of both worlds. It (probably) reduces the total amount of smoking without criminalizing it, and maintains a smoke free environment indoors.

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Happy New Years to you as well.

I do appreciate how this forum has room for healthy debate and civility. Sadly lacking in most corners of the internet…

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