This topic is temporarily closed for at least 4 hours due to a large number of community flags.
I see. Thatās my bad for not knowing the topic that you were referring to.
I do still think that there have been cases where pile-ons were the result of simple misunderstandings that blew up before they could be clarified, but I cannot seem to find what I am looking for, and itās 3:00 am here, so I will have to bow out, though I really would like to continue this conversation.
For what itās worth, I donāt believe in cliques or anything. I just think that there are some users who happen to dislike some other users and so will pounce on a faux pax more quickly than they would with other users. I am not going to name names because, frankly, we all do it once in a while.
Not your fault - itās my job to be clearer. Hopefully the clarification made sense.
@Melizmatic described a practice that Iāve borrowed. If thereās someone who just rubs me wrong, I put them on ignore. I only uncover their posts if it looks like theyāve written something that might require flagging.
But it could also be what others have described above - if theyāve been targeted by microaggressions from that user before, they would be extra sensitive to more of the same. Thatās going to build up over time. And it could easily look like just a dislike when itās much more than that.
ETA: Iāve been asked to expand on the above. This is not directed at you, @Jesse13927
I mentioned the thread that kicked this off, regarding Michelle Obama running for President, and how it was a microaggression to refuse to listen to Michele Obamaās repeated, public rejection of running for president, and how it was also a microaggression to not listen to the women and POC who challenged that microaggression.
One of the biggest blind spots men have to their own (and otherās) microaggressions is how we talk about women with other women. When we judge a woman on her looks instead of actions, weāre also judging other women that way by proxy, even when the woman might not be a very good person. A man might actually think MTG is ugly; saying so to other women (instead of criticizing her for her bad behavior) impacts the other women who are part of the discussion, and is an aggressive act against them.
Now apply that example to just about [any person within a marginalized group] being talked about for superficial characteristics by a member of [any non-marginalized group] to [members of the first marginalized group] and youāve got a microaggression.
Instead of getting defensive about it, we need to listen. This is difficult. I personally find it hard to just STFU and listen instead of defending myself. But it isnāt remotely as difficult as when the person who challenged my microaggression took that leap to do so. It becomes really important to get over ones self and listen to them. And itās not their job to fix this. Itās ours.
Iāll even go so far to say that often, when microaggressions are challenged, the first reaction of the aggressor is ābut thatās not what I meant!ā And to some extent, itās true. But that doesnāt make it OK. We can be so blind to them that we canāt even see the passive intent to harm. Itās like breathing. It takes work to identify it as such within the broader context of the discussion.
And just in case it comes up: no, we White cis het men are not on the receiving end of microaggressions. Weāre the fucking default in western society. To paraphase an asshole comedian with a valid point: they canāt even offend me.
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I would posit that this right here is how the BBS gets through the current online environment.
And I donāt mean when they say they are uncomfortable with something like a truth or a disagreement or even a conflict, but when they are being harmed.
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There is some excellent, meaningful discussion happening here that I think touches on the very question of āhow does a diverse community function in the current climate of online discourse?ā and some real talk on how a lot of this affects different groups. I hope Iāve made the moderation perspective clear. Still, in all honesty, thatās not nearly as important as the community perspective being discussed, so thank you to everyone engaging in that complex and sensitive discussion.
I will point out that thereās a subset of this topic going on that seems to boil down to individuals mistaking pushback on their posts as some sort of community-wide issue, to which I will humbly suggest that if people are consistently misinterpreting what you say and reacting and responding in ways you do not expect, it might be time to take a moment and think about how you are communicating and why so many folks disagree with you. āItās just the culture of the forumā deflects responsibility from you to communicate effectively for the audience here.
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This topic was automatically opened after 4 hours.
I have seen a few cases where I thought posters were piling on beyond whatās helpful for the thread, but I donāt think itās a common or major problem
The main issue leading to bbs arguments that I see is disagreement over whether people are responsible for the intent or the results of their words. I am very squarely in the results camp.
This thread is talking a lot about intent, and as @anon29537550 pointed out upthread people of privilege (like myself) āexpect to be taken as meaning well and being validated.ā
Many of the long back-and-forth arguments I see occur when someone says something hurtful, gets called out for it and then argues they meant no harm so it is the readersā fault for misreading their intent. Intent isnāt what matters, though.
If someone tells us our actions have unintended consequences it is our responsibility to change, not their responsibility to overlook the results of our words. Politeness or assumption of good faith shouldnāt be valued more than an honest assessment of oneās impact on other people.
When I inevitably say things that cause unintended harm, please call me out for it
This hit home. I can almost never get through to my mother on social issues and it is a good reminder of just how hard it is to communicate on tough topics with people that have different lived experience even when there is a lot in common or when āweāre on the same sideā
Lastly, I want no part of any community where snark is unwelcome
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In case youāre not aware, no individual posters or even groups of posters can remove and ban others. Only the moderators have the power to do that. There are plenty of times when @orenwolf disagrees with some of our assessments about a particular post that some might feel crosses a line.
If someone got removed, then it was a moderator (more likely @orenwolf) who made the judgment call on that persons removal and/or banning, not some individuals or a group of postersā¦ If you have issue with that, then take that up with himā¦
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A bit late to this discussion- but itās difficult to understand what people are concerned over without specific context examples.
In the thread regarding the former First Lady purportedly running for president- I pushed back hard on the presumption to speak for her and make claims of secret, special knowledge that should be considered.
I also had a comment flagged & hidden by the community. Was there a secret cabal ganging up on me? Who knows? I think that there were people who just didnāt like my opinion and how I chose to express it. The moderator restored that comment- so if those cabal members were concerned that I was acting inappropriately - they were incorrect.
But if the moderator agreed- Iād have sucked it up & tried to figure out where I erred. If I had a whole thread deleted- I wouldnāt assume it was only about me - but about the whole thread.
If people have gripes- state them. Give real examples.
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If weāre talking micro aggressions that slide by all the time- Iāll point to how women get disparagingly referred to as āthe wifeā etc here in ways that diminish her and similar comments about the darling little fluff heads in their lives. Not my wife- god forbid.
Women hear this and yes - they do talk about it. But donāt flag it because we feel itās useless & men will get angry for being called out.
You donāt see the micro aggressions we feel every hour, every day.
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this is a very good way to frame it! thanks! Weāve all had moments where we said something, didnāt think about what it could mean to others, and caused others hurt in some way. The real issue is when rather than think about what the hurt person pointed out to us, we act defensively in a way that shows that we donāt care about what pain our actions cause. itās fine to make mistakes, but we should own up to them when we can and do our best to improve our communication in the futureā¦
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I feel obligated to say something at this point as it was my comment that split the topic and I wouldnāt want anyone to think that I bailed or am just ignoring this thread after setting this all off. Iāve been out and about with the family and communicating all day and whew, I just could not catch up with the comments to add anything that wasnāt redundant.
First of all, I think this thread is an amazing example of the mods really doing a superb job holding this forum for us. I know thatās said all the time on these āback pagesā, but damn. Really, all praise is due.
I do believe there are two distinct issues at play here, however, I also see how much goes unnoticed by some of us of more privileged circumstances and how that will color absolutely anything posted on this forum. This is especially hard on certain users and Leaders who are trying to maintain vigilance in increasingly hostile environments, both here and I can only assume in other online spaces and IRL. Iāll admit I donāt always see that and that that frustration might spill over and/or be misconstrued is perfectly understandable. And youāre absolutely right; we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those users for keeping this place healthy and as safe as can be for such a public forum. It is exhausting and infuriating to constantly feel unheard or dismissed and Iām not going to pretend that Iām exempt from participating in that unwittingly. Please know that I would never do so consciously and, as ashamed as I am to have to come begging and burden anyone further, I really rely on this space for those cues and (usually gentle) nudges.
I donāt have anything to add except that the points made above about community guidelines advising us to āassume best intentionsā is imperative, but also on all of us to self-police; some perhaps more than others. And the flip side of that idea is another thing we simply must not abandon at all costs but is reliant on assuming (and honestly having) best intentions; the snark.
Never change, BBS (except in the good ways).
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Same. And I got flagged for it too. Ok fine but I still thought it sounded like a Republican ratfucking attempt. I literally didnāt say that there but Iāll say it more plainly now because trying to be super tactful and polite didnāt work in that thread when I tried it. Iāll point out that I did NOT accuse anyone of doing that on purpose here, but Iāll be honest that is my cynical non-SF-resident perception on how a narrative like that functions in the election cycle.
I want to believe Michele Obama tells the truth when she is asked, that she would know better, that she wouldnāt let any kind of ego trip catch her taking an offer like that. Perhaps some Dems in other parts of the country can see how āpissing off the consā by having her run would be a great way to generate outrage. I donāt like voting for things because of the people I hope it hurts/pisses off though and thinking like that. I donāt like endorsing activities that sound a lot like projection from the right wing either, whether they are really happening or not.
The thing is I think it is not only a bad idea, but that people should stop and think about why because this is not a sports game and no one wins if we donāt all come away with a functional democracy from it.
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Well my husband just told me about the Michelle Obama thing that he heard about from somewhere elseā¦ guess who was saying that shit? People like MTG, apparentlyā¦ so yeah, GOP ratfucking, even if people arenāt aware of itā¦
Exactly. People might believe this is all disconnected from the larger political landscape, but itās really not. Ideas about the direction this (and other countries) will go are being hashed out in spaces like this all over the internet. Progressive voices are being marginalized in some of the biggest online walled-gardens, or at the very least, they are being equated with far right voices, which does the same thing.
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I used the ratfucking language as well when thinking about it. If you wanted to disrupt a campaign- calling the candidate a dotard who was going to bow out due to his infirmities while trying to talk into existence a conflict between his logical successor and another significant power faction (his predecessor) - when they they are both black women - who are the heart of the party?
Thatās somewhat suspicious to me. But I have been wrong before.
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Michele Obama will be EASY to hate as a power hungry woman whose main claim to the Presidency is marriage. Some people see that and think ānow passion like that is motivatingā and I do get that.
But the contrivance required to get her in the slot just almost relies on a sort of lattice of coincidence that exposes what I think are a lot of problematic assumptions underlying. And if there are people who sincerely see themselves as liberal, progressive, Dem party voters who canāt stand to hear thatā¦ like, were you around in 2016? Because I learned a lot that year.
The stories we tell each other matter.
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In the interest of assuming good faith, I acknowledged to that person, that yes, I believed them when they said they heard people talking about Ms. Obama running for president. People talk about all sorts of things. So yeah, armchair-quarterback-type discussions are possible.
But I also tried to, as kindly as I could, point out that she said repeatedly she did not want to and would not run; the concept would require major upsets in the Democratic party, and no such shifts were apparent; and until the first two points changed, I could not put any faith in that rumor.
Iām not 100% sure it was ratfucking. Itās likely, sure. But it could just as easily have been a starry-eyed fan trying to drum up support for their preferred candidate by spreading rumorsā¦ or somebody who wanted ALL the attention that day and chose politics as their spotlight. 
I have no idea, and Iām not sure if it matters. They did get plenty of attention, but Iām fairly sure it wasnāt the type they wanted.
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I think thatās likely with regards to the incident hereā¦ but there is definitely some ratfucking happening with regards to GOP operatives floating that aroundā¦
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That original thread, the āis she secretlyā is absolutely ratfucking. Now they are kicking her name around and using it to influence the election and all sheās said, repeatedly, is that sheās not running and isnāt interested in it. So not only are they not believing a woman and POC , theyāre intentionally lying so that they can grab the racist base for more of their hate voting.
Itās absolutely 100% ratfucking and the absolute bullshit and chaos that user spread in that thread showed how itās EFFECTIVE ratfucking.
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I donāt doubt that. Itās not like the GOP has ever let a little thing like truth stand in their way when they want to push a narrative. We see that constantly.
My strategy there was somewhere between Roadhouse rules (āI want you to be niceā¦ until its time to not be niceā) and giving them enough rope. No matter how careful someone is, their true intentions slip out eventually.
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