Coronavirus has killed 150,000 people worldwide, as of today

Did you miss the news this week?

Again, have you seen the news?

How many people have to die for you to listen to health care providers or to scienctists who study pandemics and infectious disease? What body count are you comfortable with?

That’s not what’s happening. People on the front lines of this are begging people to get your head out of their asses, so they can DO their job without the already creaky system getting overwhelmed.

That means being smart enough to know when you need to listen to the experts.

11 Likes

No, that’s not what the earlier post said

The time was “not in May” and the verb was “consider”

The post said both the “setting” and the “meeting” of criteria could be postponed until June

Who said this? How is this even on topic?

9 Likes

I’m not taking up the “you’re basically a genocidal maniac for asking the question by what criteria we might get out of this” card. I think it’s ludicrous.

My POINT is that there are real live people at risk. Right now. You may not have friends and family who are either vulnerable or out working because they are “essential”, but I very much do. I don’t want them to die so some rich assholes can get a fucking haircut.

Cases are still RISING, we don’t have testing capacity, so we don’t even know WHO has it, and we don’t even fully understand this disease and how it behaves! We are in the MIDDLE of this pandemic. It’s is ongoing right now.

So yes, the people who are advocating for opening the economy with all of that being the case is irresponsible bordering on genocidal.

10 Likes

Point taken, cases are still rising, and I don’t want anybody to die, why would I? “Opening the economy” is not the right thing to do when it forces people back to their work place, no question.

But as the cases are still rising, the rate at which they are rising is constantly dropping. Why can’t we set a clear goal, like, when “R0 is below 1 for a week we’ll do this, and when it gets below 0.5 or lower we’ll do that”? I’m sure epidemiologists could get some sensible guidelines hammered otu.

This would work as a safety in both ways, because I see the pressure is there from the economic side - but that should be a reason to ask for such criteria, not to lump them together with carelessness and virus-denial.

DUDE… people HAVE done that! They have made plans and now some death cult members in southern states are going to start this week!

10 Likes

Ahem. As I posted in the “Ongoing coronavirus happenings” thread today:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/493707-kentucky-sees-highest-spike-in-coronavirus-cases

We’re seeing this all over; anywhere that relaxes restrictions without having a solid foundation of testing and case management in place sees a subsequent re-uptick in viral spread. It is too early to relax the lockdown because we do not have the systems in place to deal with the communal spread of this virus, and the federal government is not only feckless, it is actively undermining any efforts to implement them and distribute supplies to places that need them.

If you care about your civil rights and your social liberties, perhaps yelling at the people standing in the way of making anything happen instead of the people trying to get shit done would be more prudent.

12 Likes

That article does not say that Kentucky has relaxed its lockdown and as a result of that there would have been a spike. It says the governor perfectly sensibly refused to relax the lockdown (despite protests) when faced with a spike in infections, and said he won’t ease the lockdown “until there is a downward trajectory of reported cases for 14 days”. If that’s a good criterion, or if it may be too soft, I can not judge, but it’s a criterion.

We shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that the goal of lockdown is not so much as to reduce the number of infections over all time, that would be optimistic once community spread is in play. Rather it aims to spread them out over more time, so that we don’t exceed the ICU capacity at any given time. Here a balance is struck that health care professionals are in the best position to call.

8 Likes

And yet, as a result of people violating the lockdowns to protest them, they’re seeing a huge spike in cases. Imagine what the state would look like if he’d listened to those demanding that the state be opened back up again.

Again, it is too early to open things back up, and the systems that would enable us to do so are not in place because of both reckless incompetence and outright malice from the federal government, despite many states desperately trying to do the right thing.

8 Likes

There’s nothing that suggests a causal link between those protests and the Kentucky spike in registered cases. In fact it’s rather unlikely, with 100 protesters showing up on April 15, and a spike already on April 19. Also the spike is said to have been partially caused by registration delays over the weekend [source] - supported by the number going way down again the next day. Looking at the photos, they clearly are idiots, but blaming concrete infections on them isn’t a very solid argument.

Mod note, and sorry I missed this earlier:

  1. Misinformation from trying to compare the total yearly deaths event x, be that the flu, drowning, whatever, to weeks of COVID-19 as apples-to-apples are dangerous misinformation sources that will result in posts (and possibly posters) being eaten. Don’t do that.

  2. Comments along the lines of “See, COVID-19 wasn’t so bad, it didn’t even kill as many people as X”, which explicitly assumes social distancing measures had 0 effect, are dangerous misinformation sources that will result in posts (and possibly posters) being eaten. Don’t do that either.

15 Likes

That would indeed be an idiotic thing to assume, good thing nobody here has done that.

Reduce this spike and you spread the infections over a longer period of time. That might not sound great as we’re all getting stir-crazy indoors.

That’s a particularly good prediction, one month after they wrote that I can definitely feel my stir-crazy coefficient has gone way up. :crazy_face:

And, I wasn’t aware how bad that is going:

Apr. 10:

Apr. 21:

1 Like

It doesn’t work like this.

[ETA: I seem to have trouble with the BBS, likely to the use of the “Summary”/“Hide details” feature. I copy/pasted my written reply, postet the shortest possible form (see above) and will try to edit it im here.]

First of all, a week would not be sufficient, as you surly will have noticed based on the research published on the infections. I urge you not to talk about one week, because this will resonate with some people. Just forget “one week”.

Re:epidemiologists. Well, you are not wrong. However, you are also not right. Epidemiologists DID say we need a lockdown. They also opened up a discussion about how to get out of it. Please see my sidenote 2 below about it. I think this is just a distraction from my main point:

The general problem with your approach is that we are in a developing situation, and while a shit-ton of research is quickly hurled onto the internet, we still don’t know much about the virus, the infection, treatments, and even infection events. So, you are basically asking a scientist to evaluate a lot of known unknowns and unknown unknowns and develop a hard and clear goal. Which is a terrible idea.

What we do know is that we can flatten the curve, as it has been done. What we do know is that an R0 below 1, if estimated correctly (and that is a big if, even in countries like South Korea or Germany which have large testing capacities - see below) should bring the epidemic to a nearly constant level. A level which then can be started to manage. And this is what actually happens, driven by far more diverse expertise than that of epidemiologists. (I really hope based on expertise, and not on the gut feelings of people in power!)

In regard to estimating R0, there is a very interesting study from the team of Christoph Fraser breaking down the components for modellign R0 into asymptomatic, presymptomatic, symptomatic, and environmental. (It is, by the way, one of the starting points of the Bluetooth contact tracing initiative people have high hopes about and which I am very sceptical about from a purely technological POV.)

One key sentence from this:

Our infectiousness model suggests that the total contribution to R0 from pre-symptomatics is 0.9 (0.2 - 1.1), almost enough to sustain an epidemic on its own.

That means even if everyone having the even the mildest of symptoms would stay isolated, and you add the 0.1 of modelled asymptomatic spread, you would have an epidemic which would at least stay at the current level. Add some environmental infections (surfaces, whatever) and you will have growth.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/04/09/science.abb6936

That said, this is a modelling study. It is one of the best available, but it is still based on preliminary data.

Sidenotes

This study, by the way, massively influenced policies in the UK and the US.
Fraser and his colleagues have been heard. Which is kind of amazing.

Whatever you can say about politicians being to slow in their response before, the reaction to this was lightning fast compared to everything until then. I was and am still of the opinion that we need to be very careful even to blame the biggest political asshats for the pandemic because of their decisions before they had studies like Feretti et al.

You could say it’s the same carefulness I am trying to defend when someone like you asks to have a clear goal or guideline. In hindsight, many of the measures not taken should have been taken. Others will likely turn our to be non-effective. Hopefully not harmful, or to harmful.

However, without knowing enough, we are in the dark, often, an only can base our decisions on preliminary data. There is no one clear answer. R0 is just one metric, and even R0 isn’t perfectly understood despite the study linked (and further studies).

Bottom line: demanding a clear set of criteria in the current situation is not helpful. It puts politicians in an impossible situation, and if they ask virologists and epidemiologists for their opinion, this puts them between a rock and a very hard place.

4 Likes

Here comes another bit, expanding on the study linked:
I don’t know if the links below are helpful for you, in particular. However, there is a particular expert I listen to (podcast) regularly, and who is really an expert on this type of virus.

The scripts of this podcast are available, in German. You can search them for keywords, and use a translation tool to get an idea. (However, please be aware that context is really, really important.)

The particular study linked above was explained, in laypeople’s terms, here:

Google Translate of some relevant bits on the study, I only very quickly corrected some obvious problems:

[T]his is a study from the group of Christophe Fraser, certainly one of the best epidemiological modelers. It’s a very interesting study, I think. It is published in “Science”. The point here is to first calculate a much better, more accurate epidemiological model that is simply much more fine-grained, where more information goes in than was previously known. Scientific literature provides now more and more data that can also be evaluated and then fed into such models. The start of this study is actually the observation that we have more and more descriptions of transmission pairs in the literature and can therefore actually better determine the generation time of this infection. So: how long does it take from symptom to symptom or from infection to infection? Regarding “symptom to symptom” we speak of generation time, regarding the other - “infection to infection” - we speak about series length. And what you actually need is the series length. But it’s all relatively difficult to pinpoint that. Therefore, we can at least try to make a good approximation of the generation time. We can derive this, from literature reports, and that’s how it starts here. 40 transmission pairs from the literature are evaluated, so that a mathematical model that already exists is fed in order to derive certain parameters and certain proportions of the entire transmission activity. [We get] the transmission number R0, which has been recalculated in this study with two. This is a relatively low value when you look at what other analyzes have found before. [Other calculations were] sometimes around two and a half.

Interviewer: So, one person would infect two [and a half] other people.

Exactly. Now of course we have the option to break down these transfers to shares. And the question that is first asked of this mathematical model is: What is the proportion of presymptomatic transmissions, of symptomatic transmissions, but also of environmental transmissions and asymptomatic transmissions? So asymptomatic means a carrier who never gets symptoms himself. And presymptomatic means, of course, that it is transmitted before the transmitter has symptoms; But you can still find this transmitter later, because [the infection] will cause symptoms. Of course, you can still identify the contact patients later. This is a consideration that will be discussed later in the release. But first these values ​​that come out: Presymptomatic 0.9, i.e. a share of 0.9 in the two (i.e. in the R0 value of two), symptomatic transmission has a share of 0.8, and then environmental transmission has 0.2, and asymptomatic transmission 0.1. If you add these four values ​​together, you get two again. If you now visualize the numbers, you will come to the conclusion that the presymptomatic transmission share is 46 percent of the total transmission activity. It is a value that we discussed a few days ago from another working group, from another paper.

Interviewer: So the infected person transmits the virus before he is even sick and does not notice it.

Exactly right. So apparently almost half of the transmission activity is carried out before the [onset of the] symptoms. These are average values, that is: averaged over many transmitters and then analyzed in a mathematical model. This is noteworthy, because we have two things to think about now. On the one hand, the value R0 of two actually seems to be good news. Because if we have an R0 out of two, then we have less of what we have to reduce in the number of transmissions in order to lower the R0 below one and thus also bring the epidemic to a standstill.

However, if you now realise that 46 percent of all this transmissions take place before the symptoms, it will of course be very difficult to reduce these transfers again: [b]ecause you can actually only isolate symptomatic patients. These considerations are now fed into an interesting calculation that wants to find out: What can you actually do with certain interventions to recognise an infected person? How long does it take to recognise it? And how many has the infected infected during this time anyway, because 46 percent of the transmission happens before the onset of symptoms? And because it also takes a while before a diagnosis is made after the onset of symptoms and then the contacts can also be identified. A very important requirement plays a role here, namely the generation time of the infection, which is now recalculated here, which actually tells us: Even if you isolate immediately at the onset of symptoms, i.e. immediately remove a symptomatic [patient] from the transmission situation, then they not only will already have infected others, but these infected people are already infectious again [themselves] at the time when the symptoms begin in the first patient.

Interviewer: And maybe [other] people have been infected.

[They] are just starting with it, so they arrive at the beginning of their infectivity. And they’re just starting to infect people. We actually have observed something like this in the Munich case tracking study and wondered about it. But now there is in principle a quantitative proof that really backs the whole thing up with numbers and rates that this actually happens. Now this study makes a very interesting calculation about the possibilities of the intervention. What actually comes out of the study is that we are [already] late [when] simply identifying cases and tracking contacts, because the whole thing simply depends on recognising symptomatic patients. So it really comes down to the last day. It really matters that a symptomatic patient should not be symptomatic for a longer time before being tested. [Only after] the test the reporting chain runs. Then the health department has to come and ask: Who were you in contact with? Then these contacts will be identified at some point. This all takes so long that according to the latest calculations that most of the time it would take to get the patient out of the transmission events has long been lost. In other words, here it is, calculated in a formally very correct manner, very robustly, and based on the very latest figures: given a certain point in time of the epidemic onwards, targeted diagnostics plus case tracking plus isolation of the contacts [cannot stop this epidemic]. That’s not possible anymore. What you can do to stop an epidemic like this is to just do a lockdown. Then you no longer have to follow any cases, then everyone is at home. You can, of course, take a combination of measures where you [put in place] a lockdown that is a bit milder. Which includes something like a ban on meetings.

Interviewer: What we have at the moment in Germany.

Exactly, plus case tracking measures [that are taken in Germany]. But there are also calculations in here that say there are certain efficiencies [to be considered]. You can reduce transmission rates by a certain factor. But [all] the measures always have only limited efficiency, and [due to] this limitation of efficiencies, [they] can also [be accounted for] in [their model]. [However, e]ven then one comes to the conclusion that this combination of measures cannot actually stop [the epidemic]. Then something else is done [here], something else is included. And that would be [the development of the epidemic] you get when you use such an app [for contact tracing which is suggested as a hypothetical model in this paper].

I really suggest you have a go at the rest, sorry that I can’t do further gTranslate proofreading right now.

Bottom line: epidemiologists have been informing British and US gouvernment responses. It is argued that the UK is in lockdown because of this particular study. And the US followed, in part, their example.

If you want to push R0 below 1, a lockdown is effective. The lockdown, in combination with other measures, can vary in intensity (see: Germany), and still reach the goal. But given the proportion of pre-symptomatic infections to this R0, we should stay socially distanced as much as possible not to have rising numbers again, which *will turn into logistic growth if no hard measures are taken.

So better not start discussing “hard” numbers like “R0 below 1 for a week”. Just don’t.

I, for one, am waiting for science to find out more. And then I am willing to listen to the experts. As a biologist, I tend towards listening to scientists more than to, say, economists. But this is a political decision. And if you can say:

then you can surely appreciate that right now, information we have indicates that we do not have enough information, or options, to get out of this mess without collapsing your societies health system. Which will kill a very high number of people.

That’s not about a categorical “we fight until COVID-19 is gone”.
One more thing: science informs us that SARS-CoV-2 is very likely indeed here to stay. It is a human Coronavirus now. The question with that is: when will we have an effective vaccine?

3 Likes

This topic was automatically closed after 5 days. New replies are no longer allowed.