Could you explain how @Michael_R_Smith’s personal experiences about what he sees and hears are any less valid than your own.
I can tell you as a minority worker in a predominately feminine work field, I have found myself on the receiving end of sexism and gender based bullying. Please don’t assume that just because in male dominated industries that sexism is a thing that men have no experience of victimisation.
Yes, it was sarcasm. Why do you think it’s become such a joke?! Because whenever the discussion of sexism comes up, regardless of the field we’re talking about, or even if we’re talking about society as a whole, someone comes in here and needs to “remind” us #NotAllMen – as if we aren’t already aware of that, as if men aren’t part of this discussion (do you think you and Michael are the only men here?!), and as if we haven’t already taken care and time to imply over and over that yes, not all men are like this, and some men are even totally aware of this problem and desiring a change (look at this thread and the men participating!!!).
Why is it that I can't point out that I am not a misogynistic scumbag
Because it wasn’t all about you and I wasn’t calling you one nor was I claiming that all men in tech are sexist!
Are you really going to continue to get super defensive about this and dig your hole and act like this conversation was about you and that we really needed you to reassure us that you aren’t sexist (oh wait – “misogynistic scumbag” according to you – Jesus, you’re coming off like such a martyr, do not see that)?!
Oh, okay, so I need to jump up and down and clap and get super excited that some guy is telling me he is a decent human being? Really? Do you want a cookie for acting like a decent human?!
Also, I really am starting to doubt that you’re actually aware of your privilege. I also doubt that you’re aware that we are ALL part of this often sexist culture (even me!).
Please explain to me where ANYONE claimed that all men – including you – are misogynistic scumbags. I’ll wait (forever) – because it didn’t fucking happen.
BINGO! A man came in and let us know that he doesn’t see sexism, so surely it doesn’t exist in his field or work enviornment.
BINGO! A man came in to get super defensive and make sure we know that not all men are like this! We now have to derail this VERY important subject so that we can reassure insecure men such as yourself that no, really, we don’t mean everyone.
Are you really not that bright enough to realize that we’re having a larger discussion about the CULTURE and the systematic, internalized, and institutionalized sexism in the gaming and greater tech community? And of our society in general?
Which, me, a feminist woman, am not immune to. And neither are you. But I really don’t think you get that at all.
And so, you get super defensive and you think we’re talking about you and you are oh so personally hurt that we are daring to talk about sexism in cult
And again! Let’s all sing along!
So what does you getting snarky and sarcastic add?
And a straw man! No one has said men aren’t victimized, but what does this mean in the context of your larger argument? That YOU are getting victimized? That men are being victimized? Really? because we dare talk about sexism in gaming and the larger tech industry, men are being victimized? so what you’re saying is that if we dare to talk about this subject and dare work toward a change, we’re victimizing men?
Because that’s what you’ve just said. And that’s some silencing bullshit right there.
BTW, there is the larger subject of how not all men are going able to succeed or get ahead in this current tech/gaming culture.
Why, yes, sexism hurts men too, and there are legitimate discussions about this. But that’s not the discussion you’re trying to have.
Stop tone trolling. Please read my actual words and arguments and respond to them. That’s what is important. The mod deleted my snark because it was overly snarky and that’s fine, but the mod also stated to not tone troll … which is what you’re doing. So don’t do it.
Do you have a response to my well thought out reply or not?
I believe what he said was:
It definitely depends on where you are… I think the larger, more professional organisations with solid HR processes will have the best environment.
That’s not denying a problem exists, and neither am I. It’s noting the possibility that some sectors of the tech industry are better/worse than others. He did mention, for example, that the best culture he’d encountered professionally belonged to an international firm, and I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to imagine that a European company would be less tolerant of discrimination than American ones- They’re certainly ahead of us in enough other social issues.
Again, game developers usually start off as gamers- These game companies are pulling their employees from the same pool of people that are ready to riot every time Anita Sarkeesian suggests that maybe a costume doesn’t need to show quite as much nipple- Those are the people who are applying for jobs as developers. A firm that designs interfaces for library catalogs is going to get a very different kind of applicant. My wife works for a company that makes medical technology, and their corporate culture is exemplary- Women in high level positions, diversity in hiring, medical and schedule benefits designed with women in mind, comparable M to F pay rates, and zero tolerance for harassment.
Bottom line is that I value personal experience. If a women who worked with @Michael_R_Smith wanted to contradict what he said, then yes, I’d likely take her word over his for exactly the reasons you describe, but I will likewise take the word of someone who has worked somewhere over the word of someone who has read about that place on the internet, regardless of gender.
AGAIN, this is not to deny the problem exists, or that it is extremely broad in scope- or even that people are subject to observational biases- But I think we need to calm the fuck down long enough to actually target the groups that are willfully perpetrating abuse, over the ones that simply don’t get enough female applicants.
That’s why.
When I see such a reply I shall respond. So far all I see are rants.
Just because you can’t see something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. (Catcalling/assault would be great examples.) It may have been phrased a bit more nicely, but I’m sorry if you’re incapable of separating this from a personal attack on you. As a woman in tech, I’ve worked with great people, but I’ve also seen someone more junior than me quit not just from that company, but from the industry entirely due to bad interactions. And even if I had completely awesome experiences in my personal history, this still doesn’t let me discount the stories we hear from others.
Please drop the stick.
Please explain to me when anyone here called you or all men in tech misogynistic scum (your words). I asked several times, and you’ve yet to respond. I wonder why.
"I"m sorry, but no. Not all… Just like not all…"
Your “I’m sorry, but no” is important, here. You’re making the implication that you’re replying to someone or anyone at all who said “all men are rapists! All men in tech are sexist! That means you’re calling me sexist!”
WHICH IS NOT WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE DISCUSSION. At all.
This doesn’t make any sense. Michael is talking about the experiences of OTHER PEOPLE, not his experiences. Your analogy does not make any sense at all.
I have responded. You did when sarcastically dismissed valid points with the “#notallmen” tag.
Oh come on. You haven’t responded to any of my points.
Nor have you to mine. I see no point in further feeding your bizarre rage campaign. Good day.
I object to any discussion where “don’t lump all of us together with the bad guys” is interpreted as taking sides for the bad guys and answered with ready-made snarky discussion-killing arguments like “#NotAllTechies”. Operating on that level tends to taint a discussion.
The claim is actually that the harassment culture is “pervasive”, that it is the main reason for the low percentage of women in tech and that every male in tech is therefore in a position to do something about it.
People who provide counterexamples are met with hostility. That does make an “All ___” statement one of the the subjects of the conversation.
Of course, there is always a certain percentage that lacks reading comprehension. “Sorry I didn’t mean to come accross that way” works wonders when used against civilized dumb people who misunderstood you.
This is were you accuse lots of innocent people of being “harassers and vile shit-stains”. I rest my case.
So, where does this leave us?
The tone of the discussion has derailed on the “good” side. I claim that it is a fact because a significant percentage of people I expect to agree with the “good side” instead feel attacked themselves.
It is also the case that the discussion is full of rhetoric devices that just serve to shut down dissenters and those annoying people who came late to the discussion.
Reading through the discussion, I found mostly two groups of people. Group A was criticizing Group B’s tone, and Group B was taking that as evidence that Group A was secretly in league with evil misogynist bastards.
Have you considered that the members of Group A are, in fact, not actual misogynists, but just good people who just haven’t bought into the latest brand of feminist rhetoric yet? They agree with the message, but they don’t use the right shibboleths to be accepted.
You’re still de-railing, objecting to points absolutely no one has made, and proving that you either have serious problems with understanding what’s being discussed, or deliberately detracting from the subject of discussion for reasons either narcissistic or manipulative.
Have fun with that.
Oh I am sorry. I thought we had already moved away from the original topic of the discussion and were now discussing the nature of / the reasons for this derailment.
If this was still the main thread, I would agree that my responding to you again was doing nothing to further discussion on the original topic. We are not, and I was trying to point out a fault in the prevalent discussion style that I think causes the general inability to stay on topic.
Impugning other peoples motives and calling them “either narcissistic or manipulative” is not a nice thing to do. You are again making the points I have been objecting to, directly. And I thought the complaints about the style of the discussion in the parent thread were the main subject of this side-thread (pointless derails vs. alleged generalizations vs. attacks on the alleged derailers).
But sorry again - I see now that we failed to agree on a discussion topic before we discussed it. Naturally, that discussion was doomed to fail from the start.
