D’awwww. Do you want your wubby?
I guess it’s a shame you have to put yourself into the basket of “harassers and vile shit-stains”. But that’s what you are doing by claiming that
Because, I’m sorry, if you can’t see the problem with that statement, you are, in fact, in the same actual shit-stained basket.
Or maybe I just have a problem with assuming that my opponents in an online discussion are really that bad.
Note that I was referring to the original boingboing thread, NOT to the actual shit-staining that goes on under various gamergate-related hashtags on twitter. If you thought I was defending those, then this is just a misunderstanding.
If you were referring to the boingboing thread, then I must point out that I have defined what I mean by “Group A”. I mean those people who complain about the other people’s tone in the discussion. I was not saying that all people in the thread are in either Group A or Group B, I just said those two groups make up the majority.
Now you have a problem with me even suggesting that it might be possible that the people of Group A were not all shit-stains. You have so much of a problem with that suggestion, in fact, that you think it warrants declaring as a fact that I am in that same shit-stained basket.
Well, I am part of Group A as I have defined it, the group of people who objected to the tone of the discussion. I am not, to my knowledge, part of any other group of shit-stains.
Now maybe you define your “Group A” to include some actual shit-stains (who say worse things than to object to the tone of the discussion). In that case, consider that I might have had a slightly smaller group of people in mind, who in fact do not deserve to be called shit-stains.
Alternatively, I can tell you that if you want to embark on a quest of insulting everyone on the internet in alphabetical order, I am the wrong place to start.
You talk of “feminist rhetoric” and shibboleths, tone troll it up, invoke the #notallwhatevers.
Let me spell it out for you. You. Are. One. Of. The. Shitstains.
Thank you for playing “I Am An Ally To Misogyny” the new UNcoperative game!
So how, exactly, does one become an “ally to the antimisogyny” without pointint out that they aren’t mysogynist?
and the natural follow up to that is:
“…but let’s see what we can do to help you”
Are you so dense that you cannot see that the people you are so intent on painting to be “shit stains” DO WANT TO HELP, but in the situations that are being described are so out of their experience that they don’t know where to start.
Simply screaming
at people who want to help REALLY doesn’t further your cause. At all.
AND BEFORE ANYONE SAYS “well why are you SO EAGER to point out how spiffy and wonderful you are??? HUH? WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO HIDE? SHITLORD”, I would answer this:
I’m simply trying to point out that, despite you having terrible experiences with other men in the past, I have no intention of making you upset. I would like you to feel safe with me so that you can explain the problem you are having, If you want to talk to me, I can maybe help to resolve this.
I can’t take the time to answer properly right now, but I will return later and give you some tips. 
Oh I don’t know, actually speaking out against misogyny rather than getting defensive and making it all about you and your feelings?! start with that.
so do you really think this is about you?! REALLY?
You are, in fact, part of the fucking problem. Con-fucking-grats.
Its like youre deliberately ignoring what i am saying. but you couldn’t possibly be doing that now could you…
You are part of the problem. Period.
No, I really am not.
Let me be absolutely clear here.
I am a person trying to help.
You are continuously shutting me down.I now no longer want to help YOU. Other people, fine, but you? not a fucking chance, and YOU have brought that upon yourself.
So, as @marilove has already intimated, the first thing you shouldn’t do in a discussion about women’s lived experience is get all defensive and make it all about you.
It also comes across as you wanting a cookie for your meeting a pretty basic level of human decency. So, that’s a thing.
We don’t need to know that you’re not like that. That not all men are like that. Think about it for a moment - if the conversation was about workplace bullying, and non-gender-specific, would you feel the need to start with “I don’t bully people in the workplace …”? Honestly, you wouldn’t. You’d participate in the conversation, listen to what people had to say about their experience, condemn the actions of the bully, and potentially offer some advice/support. (And not victim-blaming)
“Not all men” often appears in a cluster with “in my experience I don’t see it” and the “toughen up buttercup/ignore it” gambits. These three derails make it appear that the issue is not as prevalent as it might otherwise be and dismisses the concerns of the women in question. Of course, as men, we are only able to dismiss women’s experience because of our privilege. When you go to the “not all men” well, you are ignoring the lived experience of the women who are the topic of the conversation - and this happens in every single feminist conversation. Every. Single. One. Can you see how that might make some of us a bit snippy or downright angry?
You might be willing to help. An ally. But as soon as reframe the conversation to be about the menz, you aren’t helping anymore. Other men in the conversation will run with the derail. The other gambits will appear. And the conversation is no longer about women and their issue, it is about men. Can you see how people might get pretty annoyed about that? How that contributes to the very issues that women must deal with every day?
So, to become an “ally to the antimisogyny” is actually pretty simple. Don’t be that guy. No man should ever, ever say “not all men”.
Listen. Support. Educate other men. Be the change blah blah blah. 
How the FUCK can I “listen and support” if the person I am trying to support and listen to is too terrified to speak to me because I am a man? hmm?
How about I say “No, not all men will treat you like that, I won’t, open up to me”. Why is it so wrong of me to do that? I’m not making ANYTHING about me. I am trying to listen and support. I am trying to open lines of communication. I am TRYING to “be the change” but you people shut me down every time I try.
If I come on a forum and offer to help and I get people like you and @marilove telling me that I am part of the problem, you know what? I don’t want to help any more. You are making it clear to me that you don’t need my help. But then at the same time you are telling me that i must support, listen educate and change? Please, explain to me what you want me to do? Leave you to it or listen, support, educate and change? Those are the choices.
OK. Either you’re reading comprehension isn’t great or you’re an idiot.
You’re still making it about you. That’s why we’re having this conversation in a derail thread.
Let me spell it out in small words.
Don’t. Make. It. About. You.
Got it?
So how can I help? I’m not allowed to talk about this subject, lest I MAKE TEH WHOLE THING ABOUT MYSELF, so what can I do? Or is it simply that you don’t want the help I am offering?
Right. Thanks for being so friendly.
Thanks for being productive (I’m saying it without irony/sarcasm this time). I am well aware that the discussion has derailed into being “about us”. That is why we are already in a derail thread. And whether potential allies are recruited or instead alienated, pushed away and insulted because they are not enough of an ally already is an important side issue as soon as it no longer gets in the way of the main discussion.
So maybe we’ve got a completely different cultural difference here that prevents us from understanding each other. I’m from Austria myself, perhaps there really are cultural differences on what’s OK and what’s not OK in a discussion. Because honestly, if the conversation was about non-gender-specific workplace bullying, I would feel obliged to point out that I have never observed it at my workplace. I would use that as a starting point for asking about how to spot hidden problems and how to help with not-so-hidden problems elsewhere.
In the “discussion culture” that I was raised in, a personal attack (calling someone names, whether deserved or not, or questioning your opponents motives in the discussion) ranks as a worse offense than pointlessly rehashing an already-disproven argument and thereby threatining to derail the conversation. That’s why I couldn’t resist calling people out on it (“tone driving trollies”). And once I’ve been directly insulted - and the conversation is already in a derail thread where it can do no further harm to the main discussion - I do consider it to be about me. You’ve made it about me by calling me a shit-stain.
It is pretty hard in general to join a discussion where there is one Accepted Truth and all potential counterarguments are already known as “gambits”. In less emotional discussions, too, people new to the discussion will come up with all sorts of already-disproved counterarguments, but instead of being personally attacked, they’ll be pointed to prior parts of the discussion where that argument was already dealt with. It takes a while until a new participant can contribute meaningfully to a discussion. Because every group of people that already has agreed on an opinion has it’s own rhetoric and its own shibboleths. The time it takes to learn all this can be productively spent by questioning the accepted truth.
Sometimes, the Accepted Truth is modified because an outsider has spotted a flaw that is invisible to the old hands, but usually, the result is that the learner begins to understand why it is the Accepted Truth.
At least that’s how I like to learn. Question things, until I don’t only know that they are true, but until I know why they are true. That’s science. If I’m not allowed to question true things because that derails the discussion, and I have to accept being insulted because otherwise I’d be tone driving trollies and making the discussion all about myself, why, it feels more like theology.
As far as feminism and other anti-discrimination efforts are concerned: I’m going to continue being an ally whenever I can see the problem [insert lots of self-praise here to convince people not to assume that I am a shit-stain]. I’m going to keep trying harder to spot signs of the problem where I’m not seeing it right now. I’m going to keep using my own judgement. I’ll keep looking for people who can educate me further.
As far as discussion culture is concerned: I stand by what I’ve said. Tone matters. If lots of people derail the discussion by complaining about the tone of the discussion, they might not be “tone driving trollies”, there might actually be a problem with the tone of the discussion. However, I’ve learned my lesson. I’m not going to do that on boingboing. There might be other places where someone brings up an argument against feminism and I actually get to read an interesting and well thought-out response rather than blanket insults. Because those are the arguments that I could then use myself for educating other men (being the change, blah blah blah ;-)). I surely won’t educate other men by calling them shit-stains.
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