Dictionary.com to stop saying pow wows where Native Americans practice “magic”

So why call himself a magician, I wonder, rather than a writer or an artist? He replies that magic is the broader and earlier notion: ‘It includes all the other things, and it has other connotations as well.’ A fair definition of magic, he says, might be ‘engaging with the phenomena of consciousness. All modern linguists and consciousness theorists seem to agree that we have to have the word for a thing before we can conceptualise it. The first magical act was the act of representation – just saying “this means that”.’

I suppose one could substitute the term “ritual” for “magic” and still convey the gist of the idea. Of course, if one was reading 19th century americana, it would be nice to have a definition that speaks to that particular conception of the powwow, but then, that’s beyond the scope of lexicography.

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There is hardly anything freaky or other about it. This is the culture of the Americas.

It seems to me that there is a lot of semantic baggage causing people to mince around the use of the term. How do people come to any consensus about what may be “widely respected”? Sorcery involves using symbolic means to create realities, it is easy witness people “pulling it off” on a regular basis in advertising, television news, government press releases, pop music concerts, etc. It is the basis of most media, and always has been. It has been explained comprehensively by people as recently as Campbell, McLuhan, Foucault, and certainly the Situationists. Honestly, I would say that claims of being unaffected by people’s use of symbology are rather naive. It’s rather pervasive, and is at least as fashionable (used to fashion things and situations) now as it has ever been.

Like many areas of life which border upon the metaphysical, such things can be categorically dismissed as superstition, but in actuality there is no superstition, supernatural, or belief required. People have understood how to bypass personal conditioning to access the deep mind for thousands of years, and have only become more skilled (if perhaps less scrupulous) in doing so.

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Surprisingly, I have found that to not be the case. Euros can often damn American culture with faint praise, that it represents “quaint beliefs of a people wholly uncomplicated by civilisation” or some such. No respect, but it tends to be seen as “mostly harmless”.

Europeans appear to, curiously enough, save their worst scorn for their own indigenous European religions. What Euros tend to promote in the Americas are almost exclusively the Abrahamic religions of the Near East. Somehow in this exchange, their own traditions are most violently despised. Even as recently as G.W. Bush’s administration, there was a bill circulating in the US to remove religious protections from “witchcraft”, which was loosely defined as representing any indigenous European religion.

It is hard for me to take some characters seriously when they describe the local traditions of the past several thousand years as being “exotic” - yet they hardly even seem to know the European culture they come from. It’s rather astonishing when a culture wants to lay their poorly-explained interpretation of yet a third culture onto you!

I have no idea how else you could possibly describe the transubstantiation doctrine in Catholicism or faith healers and speaking in tongues or snake handling in the various pentecostal sects.

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One group’s god-made “miracle” is another’s deceptive “magic” (or just, “delusion”).

I think it is asking them update the definition to something more accurate.

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I don’t know what else you can call transubstantiation.

[eta] D’oh! @theodore604 beat me to it.

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How about “superstition”?

Thats’s what you end up with when you rely on public domain materials.

Sure, but it COULD be called magic too. Of course, most Catholics wouldn’t characterize it that way. But the turning of a wafer and wine into the body and blood of christ could be called all of those things - a superstition (which was common for the British for much of their colonization of Ireland), magic (which seen from some objective third party it could be) or a regular miracle (as seen by the faithful). It’s a matter of perspective.

I think understanding these events as the practitioners would most like is the best way forward in this case.

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Sure, except of course when believers in a “religion” impose their “truths” and attendant rules on others, while dismissing other beliefs in the intangible as superstition, or magic.

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Couldn’t agree more.

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It’s conjectured that the term “hocus pocus” came from the Latin phrase “hoc est corpus” which was part of the phrase Priests said during Mass when showing the wafer as the transubstantiated body of Christ. I wish it were definitely so, since that is the moment the “magic” happens.

That was really just an aside, though. When religions have doctrine involving the supernatural, it’s not regarded as magic, but usually as a mystery (which is how they refer to transubstantiation) or a miracle. Trying to understand things in their terms seems the more constructive way to approach things. We can understand and reject the ideas, but they’re more effectively rejected when you understand, correctly account for things in terms devotees also use, and still offer reasons to reject.

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Right and I agree it’s important to under how people understand their faith practices when talking about them. But people who don’t consider things like transubstantiation to be magic, might also be inclined to view native American practices as such, while Native Americans themselves don’t consider what they do to be magic. It’s relative.

I think part of what is getting us trip up here is the overall use of magic as a perjorative to denigrate others practices (contrary to people who embrace the term magick to describe their religious practices - see the Alan Moore link above?). At what point did people come to understand magic as being first an “evil” practice (middle ages, likely, with the rise of witch trials during the inquisition and beyond) and then come to understand it as denoting something that doesn’t exist at all and hence is something to be sneered at (there was probably some class/ethnic tensions involved in that, especially between, say the English Anglicans and Irish Catholics).

But overall, what matters is how people whose religion/culture it is understand their own practices and if they don’t believe it is or call it magic, then I’m all for deferring to them.

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I agree, I think that is very much what is happening here. My BS detectors strongly mistrust the process of pejoration. Whatever you do, agency I think can be defined by you and/or your group controlling your own cultural narrative. But this needs to be a pro-active process, because once one’s own notion of one’s narrative is mostly reacting against others’ opinions, then it’s a failure. Becoming reactionary is an attempt to save face because one isn’t being pro-active, isn’t owning their terms. It’s rather plain to see when there are a list of what are essentially synonyms (sorcery, enchantment, shamanism, etc) but people avoid one term, with no real justification. It’s funny (as in “peculiar”) that people here are often eager to point out that words can have multiple meanings, but when I point that out in this discussion, all I got was awkward silence.

I’d say with the empirical state religions of Mesopotamia, from which Abrahamic religions largely derive. At that time, most of Europe, Asia, Americas, Australia, etc had religions which would basically be called “shamanic” - meaning by that they promoted direct experience of mystical ideas by the individual. But the ancient proto-Semitic religions, Khemetic, and Vedic religions were more heavily tied into statecraft and political power. Early Christianity struggled to define itself by oppressing Gnostics from the very beginning, who espoused a more direct yogic/magic interpretation.

Basically, religion as a tool of the state hinges entirely upon the notion of “Leave it to The Professionals!”, that ritual exists so that a special person, a priest who is recognized by the state, can claim to experience some religious state for you, interpret it for you, and then prescribe moral/behavioral edicts which have been approved by the state. This is implicit in the core creeds of later Christianity with the interpretation that Christ is not “merely” another death/resurrection avatar which anybody can relate to, but a separate, singular entity. Jesus died so that YOU don’t have to! And the priest will understand that so that YOU don’t have to! Mystical/magical interpretations of this have always been that Christ’s death and resurrection are a metaphor, and that you can do the same. Obviously, this would be total heresy to most followers of institutional Christianity, as it undermines the whole enterprise!

This is why there has been such fierce oppression of the Gnostics, Druids, witches, and practically every non-institutional and indigenous practice everywhere. Because it is easier to manage a society which is not populated by creative people and geniuses, so the technologies for changing states of consciousness are rigorously controlled. The most powerful technologies for affecting consciousness are ritual and drugs, and to perhaps a slightly lesser degree, sexuality. Hence the vague restrictions which still accompany these things in even nominally secular society. Governments, churches, and advertisers are certainly not opposed to these technologies in actuality. Rather, they prefer to exploit them for themselves - whilst alienating the average person from doing the same. In this sense, sorcery (or magic(k)) can be understood as the democratization of the processes of drastically altering one’s own consciousness at will. Contrasted against traditional “religion” (literally, to tie and bind), of using wetware to make your population think more or less the same way. It doesn’t really have anything to do with believing supernatural weirdness, that’s only what they tell the rubes.

That’s a sticky point, because I don’t know that there is a lot of consensus here. My (admittedly limited) experience is that much of the indigenous culture of the Americas is intimately involved with what can be called magic. I am not stuck on the term myself, but I do wonder about why so many (apparently) go out of their way to avoid it. Unfortunately, my intuition is that it is being done to appeal more to Western/European sensibilities, rather than because it somehow accurately reflects American traditions. I am curious if it might not be underlied by a (IMO misguided) desire for assimilation.

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I agree with much of what you said here… This is the key point of this whole discussion. Native American practitioners led the charge on not having what happens at these events “magic” so fair enough. My point about transubstantiation above rested on the notion that, seen without any context at all, the whole thing appears magical. but we also know (for some of the reasons that you and I outlined above), that this description would never be acceptable to a Catholic. They don’t see it as magic, but as a miracle/mystery. That’s not something to just gloss over or ignore. A practitioner gets first crack at defining their practices, as far as I’m concerned and native Americans doing so is an anti-imperial act that should be respected, I think.

I’d also argue that despite religions having a long history of “professionalizing” magical practices and denying magic in the first place, there was a long set of folk magical practices that lasted into fairly recently in history.

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I have been struggling to understand how this is relevant. Why should Americans be concerned by how Catholics choose to describe their rituals? In Central America and the Caribbean there is a bit of an overlap between indigenous practice and Catholicism, but this does not seem to be much of a factor in North America. Why shouldn’t indigenous Americans ignore how the institutions of Catholicism, Jainism, or Zoroastrianism choose to understand their own traditions? I think this puts us in a foolish position - do people in the Vatican need to define their traditions by reacting to us? Much of the fight against magic by the Catholic church has actually been internal, that much of the magic they were most upset by was perpetrated within their own organisation. So their “choice” to institutionally categorize their activities this way is largely based upon hypocrisy, and so IMO an example not worth emulating.

I am not at all convinced that this is true of Americans generally. The article said that several prominent indigenous people feel this way, but why do they get to speak for everybody else? I am not deeply familiar with the Indian Country Today Media Network, but they seem to support a lot of practice that I find problematic - such as relying upon colonial courts and governments for our recognition and welfare. Their website is only available in English, FFS. Not unlike any other group, culture, etc - when you put your affairs in the hands of Western systems of governance and finance, you are assimilated. So the most (perhaps only) revolutionary approach is to avoid doing so, to define your own systems. Otherwise there is no real future in it. So my experience suggests that letting such prominent people speak for all of us can possibly be more detrimental than empowering.

If a few prominent European people pressured a dictionary to change an entry based upon common use, I imagine that many would decry this as an exercise in elitism. It could be for the best, but I would tend to expect a certain amount of skepticism.

My point wasn’t about how indigenous people understand Catholicism or vice versa, it’s more about hegemonic practices by powerful institutions and how they define others. My point is that out of context, the practice of transubstantiation would be understood as magic, but it’s not because the practitioners (and institutions that they constitute) do not see it that way. Whether or not it’s hypocritical is largely irrelevant in this discussion (even if we might agree that it is).

Well, does the nation that runs the website have access to their people’s language? Because a fair number of native American practices and languages were effectively wiped out by European colonialism (there are plenty of languages that nearly suffered the same fate - irish was nearly wiped out in the 19th century and made a come back with the rise of Irish republicanism, for example). I’m not sure it’s fair to complaining that they write in English when they may not have a choice. Plus, there is plenty of reason to write in a language that is widely understood, especially when you’re making an argument about the colonizing power and what it’s done to your community.

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Well, the terms genocide, concentration camp, and racist fuckwittery hadn’t been coined yet.

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