I assumed you had a mouse in your pocket
(Perhaps it is snacking on the chip on your shoulder?)
I never once voted on the induction of a member of the military. I also would like you to know that the elections I have been able to be involved with never involved anyone who gave an order to have members of the military tell doctors that their oath did not apply in some situations.
You are way off base.
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Here is how the force-feeding works⌠(produced by Reprieve that features actor and activist Yasiin Bey)
First you take a garden hose; then you stick it up your nose; turn it on; then youâre gone; weeeeee
Were? I guarantee you this is going on today.
Chip on my shoulder? You are responding to everything Iâve written. Itâs as if you donât read for knowledge but only debating points.
I stated that the doctors are culpable as well. If you have a reason they are not, present it instead of attacking me.
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The belief in US-american exceptionalism. They think they can do no wrong because theyâre the good guys. Americans are always the good freedom loving guys- the pledge in school says it, Hollywood shows it and every politician with a flag pin tells it. They do it for freedom, liberty and candy.
The rest of the world knows better âŚ
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Article by Soviet dissident, Vladimir Bukovsky:
Tortureâs Long Shadow
In 1971, while in Lefortovo prison in Moscow (the central KGB interrogation jail), I went on a hunger strike demanding a defense lawyer of my choice (the KGB wanted its trusted lawyer to be assigned instead). The moment was most inconvenient for my captors because my case was due in court, and they had no time to spare. So, to break me down, they started force-feeding me in a very unusual manner -- through my nostrils. About a dozen guards led me from my cell to the medical unit. There they straitjacketed me, tied me to a bed, and sat on my legs so that I would not jerk. The others held my shoulders and my head while a doctor was pushing the feeding tube into my nostril. The feeding pipe was thick, thicker than my nostril, and would not go in. Blood came gushing out of my nose and tears down my cheeks, but they kept pushing until the cartilages cracked. I guess I would have screamed if I could, but I could not with the pipe in my throat. I could breathe neither in nor out at first; I wheezed like a drowning man -- my lungs felt ready to burst. The doctor also seemed ready to burst into tears, but she kept shoving the pipe farther and farther down. Only when it reached my stomach could I resume breathing, carefully. Then she poured some slop through a funnel into the pipe that would choke me if it came back up. They held me down for another half-hour so that the liquid was absorbed by my stomach and could not be vomited back, and then began to pull the pipe out bit by bit. . . . Grrrr. There had just been time for everything to start healing during the night when they came back in the morning and did it all over again, for 10 days, when the guards could stand it no longer. As it happened, it was a Sunday and no bosses were around. They surrounded the doctor: "Hey, listen, let him drink it straight from the bowl, let him sip it. It'll be quicker for you, too, you silly old fool." The doctor was in tears: "Do you think I want to go to jail because of you lot? No, I can't do that.... " And so they stood over my body, cursing each other, with bloody bubbles coming out of my nose. On the 12th day, the authorities surrendered; they had run out of time. I had gotten my lawyer, but neither the doctor nor those guards could ever look me in the eye again.
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YEah, well, take a look at some of the Republican scum in the House and Senate who have â,M.D.â after their names. Just because you learned the mechanics of being a doctor doesnât mean you picked up on the morals.
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Thatâs obnoxious collective-responsibility nonsense in any case, and more so in this case. I for one do not believe I have any duty to participate in any system of violence. I would also point out that the only viable candidates tend to be war criminals or would-be-war-criminals, and the elections tend to be crooked, and the Supreme Court gave up on the pretense of free and fair elections to give Florida and the presidency to that man.
I donât know how this complete falsehood has gained such currency on web forums. Youâve been misled.
Google for the truth. Itâs been repeated dozens of times, all over the world, and the results are quite respectable. There have been interesting variations, too, using different uniforms instead of a white lab coat. Cultural variations (which are actually quite minor) have been identified too.
Nonetheless, the fact that around half of us can be easily coerced should never be used as an excuse for ethical failures. Thatâs a pretty clear moral hazard. We should all of us strive for happiness and clarity, and not accept cowardly excuses for wallowing in fear and deceit. Those doctors didnât stand up, so they need to own their mistake and accept the consequences.
[quote=âdacree, post:13, topic:13494â]I saw nothing to indicate the doctors felt their lives were in danger or that they were in any way coerced.
These are all excuses and poor ones at that.[/quote]
Yeah, until I see clear evidence of something like credible threats to the physical well-being of the physiciansâ families, I have to consider them were paid, willing, accomplices to torture.
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[quote=âMedievalist, post:33, topic:13494â]
Nonetheless, the fact that around half of us can be easily coerced should never be used as an excuse for ethical failures. Thatâs a pretty clear moral hazard. We should all of us strive for happiness and clarity, and not accept cowardly excuses for wallowing in fear and deceit. Those doctors didnât stand up, so they need to own their mistake and accept the consequences.[/quote]
Oh, I agree with all of that, and I wasnât attempting to excuse their behaviour, but to explain it. What they did was wrong. Why they did it is still interesting, though, even if only as a guide as to how systems should be set up. For example, having doctors âinside the machineâ means theyâre highly likely to be compelled to harm detainees because they start identifying with the machine (Stockholm) or start accepting everything the machine requires as legitimate (Milgram) or get carried away by the powers that the machine confers (Stanford) or ⌠something else. The threat of physical force or harm is not necessary for compulsion to be present.
The point being that the doctors should probably be independent, and part of an independent and independently powerful chain of command. Assuming, that is, that you want to doctors to behave ethically.
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[quote=âdacree, post:18, topic:13494â]
Yeah⌠no. Just because I am a citizen of a country does not make me responsible for the criminal activity of a few people with tiny amounts of power.[/quote]
Do you pay taxes? If you do, then you directly funded what occured.
[quote=âdacree, post:13, topic:13494â]
So an analyst can resist this coercion but a doctor cannot?[/quote]
No, occupation has nothing to do with it.
Uncommonly brave and courageous people - whatever their occupation - can resist coercion. The rest of us - whatever our occupation - canât.
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Welllll, they used to call it âwaterboardingâ, but some people didnât like it with plain water. So now they use food instead. Brilliant, eh?
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I have not read the whole thing, but here are a few interesting quotes from the beginning of the paper:
[âŚ] military and intelligence-agency physicians and psychologists, acting under directives and protocols developed by authorities, aided in the design, implementation, and monitoring of torture.
If you had any doubtâŚ
Far from ending the use of waterboarding, however, OMs personnel came to oversee it, along with many other enhanced interrogation methods.
OMS = CIAâs Office of Medical âServicesâ.
For waterboarding, the OMS guidelines required a medical assessment before more than 15 applications of the method within a single 24-hour period.
The first 15 times were expected to be fine.
by the end of 2003, the OMS had assumed a major role not just in clinical oversight but also as a policy advisďżźďżźer to the CIA and the Justice Department on the medical consequences of the use of enhanced techniques. The OMS reviewed each of the methods used, identified potential consequences and risks, and gave opinions on limitations that should be imposed on their use.
Etc.
Hard to read without getting nauseated.
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But, unlike those doctors, who, if they were military personnel, were facing a dishonorable discharge at worst, they will definitely throw me in jail if I donât pay my taxes.
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You bring to mind an interesting notion: Forget the docs, what about me?
Hey, weâre all paying for it. I know I give the tax-man a heap of money every year. Whatâs our collective excuse? You know itâs funny, people think that if they pronounce their helplessness over and over again, that it excuses them. Iâm not sure it does. It doesnât matter if you personally object to the process, because itâs being done in your name with money you provided. You could argue coercion, that you canât just not pay your taxes, that paying for policies you personally object to is part of living in a democracy. I do feel the latter is true, but I donât feel any cleaner for it.
One thing is certain, we fear our government more than our government fears us. This is why in the Great Gun Debate I donât care how many 2nd amendment yahoos claim to be ready for the day the government goes âtoo far,â Americans donât even have the stomach to hit the ballot box or even hold up signs. It takes both more and less than just the-having-of-guns to fight this kind of abuse. It takes gumption. Thatâs the first battle, and we lost it hard.
Iâm quoting myself from half a year ago:
Iâm using the following argument sparingly because itâs commonly known to derail a thread in an instant but I think this time itâs appropriate:
Iâd like to ask you a simple question: Who is made responsible for Hitler? Ask anyone - especially a Brit or USian and he will tell you âthe Germansâ. He was voted to office. There was a size-able opposition, namely from the Social Democrats (SPD) but ultimately everyone was responsible for the things that they didnât prevent.
You and your fellow countrymen/women ARE responsible. You personally didnât vote for X but itâs your democratically elected government and you did nothing to prevent the things done in your name. Inaction made you complicit. Whats making the situation worse is that the US citizen re-elected Bush and Obama knowing full well what kind of agenda and policy he had. Voting for a shitty politician could happen and is far more excusable than seeing he is full of shit and THEN re-electing him - that makes you (as a US citizen) even more responsible.
So donât tell me, a german citizen, that you are not responsible for your government. You are. Iâm being made responsible for a government my own grandfather didnât vote for!
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Well your point would be invalidated if they voted against the people who did it.
But what if they voted against Bush and voted for Obama, are they then responsible for Obama gitmo violations because they did not vote for McCain or Romney?!?!
If they voted for McCain and Romney then they are in the clear right?
What if they voted for Nader, are they responsible? Iâm betting hell yeah!
What if they allowed it to continue by not assassinating political leaders or engaging in asymmetrical warfare against the current power structure?
How far does someone have to take it to be free from complicity? I guess prisoners doing life are innocent of complicity in this case, as long as they got sent away over 14 years ago.
Actually, by the same argument that âthe Germansâ were responsible for Hitler, then âthe Americansâ are responsible for Bush/Obama. Even with Bush getting ~49% of the vote one time. Hitler got ~1/3 of the vote (and in a PR system, got 1/3 of the seats) but bullied each other party, individually, into passing the law that made him dictator.
TL;DR 2/3 of the 1930s German voting public did not vote Hitler. History has lumped them in with the ones that did.
