Everything you know about teenage brains is bullshit

boing
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Kathryn Mills is a Ph.D. student. Your statement sort of suggests she has the right/position to decide who is convincing, unconvincing and scaremongering. This is her opinion. I agree with some of her points, I just thinks its WAY over broad and unhelpfully provocative. She’s worked with two people I respect immensely: Jay Giedd and Sarah J. Blakemore. I wonder if she ran this little article by her mentors, and what they said about it.

I’m sure she knows or knows of Valerie Reyna, too. Mills is a smartie and she works at one of the most highly regarded institutes in the world. Maybe I just object to her title. Come on, Kathryn. Why do such a bullshitty thing in your title and approach when you’re decrying the lack of real scientific analysis of the way neuroimaging data is being received in the public sphere?

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As a retired teacher, I’d warn against anything old teachers say about the changes in students. As long as I can remember (quite a long time, actually – I’m 66), teachers have claimed that the quality of students has been declining. I haven’t noticed this myself, and I suspect that teachers tend to remember the good students from the past and the annoying and disruptive ones that they are currently faced with. Personally, I had my best class ever a year before I retired, and I am happy to admit it!

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Thanks! 13 bucks on Amazon, got my weekend reading :smiley:

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McLuhan also wrote about it, a bit more recently than Plato :smile: ( The Gutenberg Galaxy (1962), outlined the social and cognitive impacts of mass print media).

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Bringing together rigorous and honest scientific research and the need/value of public dissemination is no small issue, that’s for sure. Dr. Reyna seems to have a laudable attitude in that regard. So does Mills, for that matter; you and she probably have more in common than not re: this particular topic.

Do you have a cite for the paper by Choudhry and McKinney?

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Digital media, the developing brain and the interpretive plasticity of neuroplasticity
Transcultural Psychiatry 2013 50: 192 originally published online 18 April 2013
Suparna Choudhury and Kelly A. McKinney
DOI: 10.1177/1363461512474623

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its not my statement. its a prescient headline, for it well describes this very conversation.

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Yes, we understood your so very clever allusion the first time around.

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Just want to clarify that I did not choose this title! In the document I sent to BoingBoing I suggested the title: “Forget what you’ve heard, we don’t know much about how Internet use affects the brain”

I love Valerie Reyna’s work!

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The Choudhury & McKinney paper is, to me, the best essay on this topic. I really should have linked to it within the article, but didn’t know where to include it. I did link to another one of Suparna’s excellent studies: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22257745

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Maybe I am being too cavalier with my own health, but as a 30-year-old who has been exposed to the internet since 1995

In my opinion, the Internet of 1995 was a very different Internet than more recent times. For example, there wasn’t much of any sexting in 1995 among teens. I don’t think the Internet as a whole culturally plateaued until only about 6 or 7 years ago as far as most content and influence goes.

Also, cheap mobile devices have changed who, how many, when and where people access the Internet in the last few years as well, which I think radically changes aspects of content and who sees it. For example, the recent issue of kids anonymously cyberbullying each other in school through their smartphones, etc. is a newer development.

http://lakeforest.suntimes.com/2014/03/10/yik-yak-app-banned-at-lake-forest-high-school-amid-flap/

In other words, I’m not sure the effects of the Internet on developing brains from 1995 forward are going to be the same as 2008 forward, etc. And, of course, now that we know that brains continue to develop well into the 20’s, it’s going to “work on” the brains even further than we imagined.

That said, I think the Internet (despite all its many flaws and hinderances) is something that’s propelling humanity forward overall when it comes to connecting one another on civil rights issues, stopping wars based upon lies, etc. – I mean, I know it’s the hip thing to talk about how the Internet is used in bad ways, but I think it cuts both ways. Overall, it’s a blessing for humanity and like any new technology, we tend to burn the shit out of ourselves before we learn to cook with it.

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  1. Not my statement
  2. no, what you read into it is at least half on you. Try asking.
  3. she does have that right. and also the right to say so. also she has access to THE PLATFORM
  4. She has a masters.
  5. I’m not sorry to be the one to break it to you, but you stink of sour grapes.
  6. Youre also a bit of a pedantic shithead.

6 is just my opinion. Also held by the mouse in my pocket. It’s the only insult I’ve sent your way in this entire conversation. I have right of return.

Now please just don’t talk at me.

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I think you are right that the internet has changed significantly since 1995. There is one change in particular worth noting here, IMHO:

For a long time, when you interacted with people on the internet they were all likely to be strangers, which is to say you did not know the person you were chatting with in an offline capacity.1 I remember the time around 1998 on the old MSN chatrooms/messageboards when an old cyber-friend discovered after several years of chatting with me that we lived only 40 minutes away from each other. But that kind of revelation didn’t come very often.

And we mercilessly cyber-bullied some of the folks who participated in that old chatroom/messageboard. Like many young people we formed cliques. It was a forum for sharing creative writing, with all the terrible teen poetry you can stomach, and in many cases we weren’t very nice. Cyber-bullying happened then too and I regret to say that I was a cyber-bully. While I got to know the a/s/l of my friends, I never knew much about the others. I had to work hard at developing empathy for the others.

But because the internet has become so ubiquitous, and most definitely with the advent of smartphones, tablets, etc., you are much more likely to be able to communicate with people you know offline as well. And while the internet continues to serve as an escape for people (and teens specifically) who do not fit in with their ‘meatspace’ communities, in many cases it only provides them with partial anonymity. The offline bullies don’t have to work very hard to find their targets online and now bullied teens don’t have as much respite from harrassment as they did back in 1998.

That is most definitely a change from when I grew up with the web.

I mean, I know it’s the hip thing to talk about how the Internet is used in bad ways, but I think it cuts both ways.

I think it cuts so much deeper into the positive that the argument is largely an exercise. I am an open-minded person and willing to be convinced otherwise, but the good that is engendered by the internet over its time sure seems to be orders of magnitude greater than the bad.

1. edited to note the irony that in the early days of the internet pre-commercial access, most users actually knew each other, or at least knew of each other.

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As a person who just got back from a four day retreat - the fourth since 2007 - for the members of a discussion board that started 15 years ago, I cannot more highly disagree with the worries about how internet use will affect teenagers.

As the mom of a teenager who has found a community on Tumblr and is meeting one nearby participant in this group (with my approval and involvement) in real life in a few days, I’m excited that she is also using the Internet to make real connections in the world.

How will it affect them? They will make friends with people across the globe who share their interests. No matter how backwater an area they live in, they will find like minded people who they can converse with. They will have opportunities to be creative and reach audiences that never existed before. If they are disabled or different they will be able to find a way to contribute in a community that may not be open to them locally.

Will it harm teens to be looking at their phones all the time, uploading pictures, and all that stuff instead of looking up? Yes if that is all they ever do. But will it will also be possible for them to put the gadgets away and look at people and talk about interesting subjects they have found through the web.

Sorry, as a techie who has heard every fear voiced about every new advance in communication - it is just fucking ridiculous. You can’t be too in touch with other people. No. You can’t. It’s good to have friends.

As a woman who is married now to a man who she couldn’t be with because 23 years ago, before the web was a part of our lives, a long distance relationship was pure folly, but after it made it possible to email and chat and be together every day when we reconnected (again long distance) - why is this a problem again?

My life has been so enriched by this technology it is hard for me to imagine why there is even a concern, except, Oh Noes! It’s not like when we were kids.

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Cyber-bullying happened then too and I regret to say that I was a cyber-bully. While I got to know the a/s/l of my friends, I never knew much about the others. I had to work hard at developing empathy for the others.

Right, it certainly did happen back then, I just think it was in far less numbers than we see today. The demographics have widened much further since those days and includes far more females in the mix as well. I remember there was times even up to the late nineties when entire BBS systems were still almost exclusively male (not by choice).

Thank you for being so candid. Were you only a cyber-bully or were you a bully offline as well? I ask this because I wonder if many people only bully because they don’t empathize that there’s a real human being on the other end of an online conversation, profile, etc.

I wouldn’t consider myself a cyber-bully, but we did raise some hell and confusion with script kiddy AOHell and assorted other AOL hacks, etc. - We tended to make life hell for the cyber-bullies and even “out” them. Which was wrong. I guess that was bullying the bullies. So, yeah, we were bullies and mob rule will always lead to punishing some false positives.

On the other hand, I tended to be like that offline as well when I was younger and hung with rough dudes that theoretically shot at skinheads, theoretically pulled some Omar Little style heists, etc., but were otherwise nice to most people. I’ll leave out the rest of the stuff. But, I have to admit when “nameless” the skinhead literally pissed himself from the actions of someone he thought was a longhaired hippy, I still chuckle a bit to this today. “Nameless” reformed himself after that. Amazing what a near-death experience will do for some people. But, I’m wildly digressing…

But, yeah… during any time period:

(Language NSFW in most places) F’bombs, etc.

The offline bullies don’t have to work very hard to find their targets online and now bullied teens don’t have as much respite from harrassment as they did back in 1998.

That is most definitely a change from when I grew up with the web.

Yeah, nowadays I often hear about kids finding each other online and it leads to very real offline fights that ironically gets captured on video and loaded back online.

I didn’t hear too much of that beezwax going on in the nineties or even early 2000’s. But I know kids would have done it back then if they had much readier access to easy video, online access, etc.

Overall, I think a lot of kids today are better than some of the bastards I knew in the 80’s and 90’s - But, that’s just my anecdotal experience talking along with the fact that many kids today are far more involved in charity outfits, etc. than in the past. But, then again, maybe that has to do with easier access to online organization along with a Gen X influence, I don’t know.

I think it cuts so much deeper into the positive that the argument is largely an exercise. I am an open-minded person and willing to be convinced otherwise, but the good that is engendered by the internet over its time sure seems to be orders of magnitude greater than the bad.

I agree wholeheartedly. I shouldn’t have used the expression of a double-edged sword because that denoted equivalency. I see far more good getting squeezed out of good people via the Internet than being a enabler for the bad (although the news doesn’t often report it that way). For every rotten trolley picking on a handicapped kid on YouTube, there’s hundreds more creating and voting petitions, quietly using the Internet to educate themselves and others, organizing fun offline events and some offline political stuff, raising money for their sick classmates, etc., etc.

What the government and large corporations are doing with the internet is another story entirely, unfortunately. I think that weighs more towards the bad than the good. Hopefully that will evolve down the road, but I’m not optimistic it’ll be any time soon. Then again, the kids on Reddit and all over the Internet are getting increasingly more restless and that’s going to be an interesting battle down the road. Something we’ve never really seen before in human history, AFAIC. I’m looking forward to it, overall.

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Were you only a cyber-bully or were you a bully offline as well? I ask this because I wonder if many people only bully because they don’t empathize that there’s a real human being on the other end of an online conversation, profile, etc.

I was only a cyber-bully, never in real life. I’ve given some thought into my behavior in those earlier days on the web and your assessment is correct in my case. In my mind I was not communicating with a person but rather a screen name, even though I began to realize that I was simply making excuses for my shitty behavior. I also felt that lack of empathy offline as well. At a certain point, I decided that I liked people so much more than not, that being shitty to them was hurtful, and began to re-program my behavior. Interestingly enough, even now when I’m online I still constantly remind myself not to be a jerk, whereas offline that is generally not necessary.

Overall, I think a lot of kids today are better than some of the bastards I knew in the 80’s and 90’s - But, that’s just my anecdotal experience talking along with the fact that many kids today are far more involved in charity outfits, etc. than in the past. But, then again, maybe that has to do with easier access to online organization along with a Gen X influence, I don’t know.

According to Wiki, the folks who coined the term ‘Millennial generation’ believed that the defining characteristic of that cohort is an ingrained sense of civil duty. The internet certainly makes it easier to participate in communities whose values you share or contribute to causes in which you believe. And I am pretty certain we’ll find that the easiness of being a good person online influences offline behavior as well.

What the government and large corporations are doing with the internet is another story entirely, unfortunately. I think that weighs more towards the bad than the good. Hopefully that will evolve down the road, but I’m not optimistic it’ll be any time soon.

The internet cannot continue to exist as we knew it growing up with the influences exerted on it now and that is really a great shame. Someone in another, unrelated BB thread a week or so ago said something like, ‘The internet is now a place to advertise and sell stuff, but it really wasn’t always like that.’ And while every generation creates a mythology of nostalgia about its youth, this statement really seems accurate to me. We really had something here and I’m grateful I was able to benefit from it. I’m deeply resentful that the U.S. government in particular is poised to destroy it. But like you I know that something new may well emerge from its ashes.

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I cringe every time I see this bit of Phaedrus used as a drive-by quote to illustrate resistance to change/progress; in one (ironic) sense, such uses demonstrate Plato’s point. (And to understand that point, read the entire Phaedrus, preferably under the wing of a teacher who can guide and challenge your understanding of the play.)

Now, Bog help me, I’m going to commit the same sin, just to make Plato seem a bit less curmudgeonly. Here’s what immediately follows the quote pulled out in Mills’ Box 1:

IOW, Plato is warning us about instant experts holding diplomas from the University Of Google.

Also, from the same exchange between Socrates and Phaedrus:

Which is kinda the point being made by Mills about the state of neurological literature re: Our Tender Youth.

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This seems to be one of the areas where the Internet is reversing the orality > literacy trend. Words, once written, can be edited, questioned by others, discussed and improved on, including collaboratively. If you read an article in the online Guardian for example, you can often discuss it with the journalist who wrote it and with others who may have more experience than they do. A good set of links and a healthy comments section can teach you a lot more about the topic than the article itself. This is obviously the ideal rather than reality in many cases, but the Internet is hugely powerful as a tool to enable constructive conversations. The format is usually text, but the ‘genre’ is much closer to the oral side of the spectrum.

One thing I dislike hearing is an uncritical assumption that changes to children’s minds that make them less able to meet the challenges of 30 years ago are necessarily negative or ‘damaging’. The Internet is impossible to talk about as a single effect (even if you were able to isolate it from other parts of children’s lives), but many of the differences WRT previous generations may be putting them at an advantage in the world today. A much more useful question would be to ask which aspects of the Internet have positive and negative effects on children and to discuss how to foster creativity, inquiry, civility etc. online, because the Internet itself is not going anywhere.

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You really just sound like a miserable human. You admit to being a cyber bully. Most everything you write is a projection of your fear and insecurity. I’m not talking to you now or in the past. It’s your imagination that there is a there there to address. Even the art of trolling isn’t something you seem to excel at or enjoy.

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Hey, thanks for weighing in! At least your post got some discussion going and actually led to a nice connection here with someone. I like your actual title much better than the edited one :slight_smile:

We may have to agree to disagree on Boyd’s work.

All the best.