George Takei says gay Sulu is "really unfortunate" decision

[anotherone]

To what end?

I began by pointing out that TOS was the most progressive TV of its time but people are bashing it for casual bigotry which I find completely overlooks what it was able to accomplish. Ignatius decided to say it had flaws and mistakes and I pointed out that they were not mistakes but artifacts of the time in which they were made - which is not the same as a flaw or mistake.
I never suggested the work be shielded from criticism. Critique it on it’s own merits and not by today’s standards I say. Today’s standards will be laughably antiquated in 50 years so it’s better if we don’t play the high hand.

But again I ask, to what end do we want to critically view TOS through today’s lense? What will we accomplish other than a self serving of smug at how evolved we have all become?

As for the way TOS treated Americans, the idea was that they were abducted in the 19th century and placed on a planet. With no interaction between other tribes or peoples, they did not change with the rest of society. Is that ham fisted or likely what would happen to any of us?
Concerning the idea that TOS was misogynistic because a lack of female starship captains, remember that the very first episode featured a woman in command of Enterprise. Also, there is no indication that women were in any way barred from command. Those critiques seem to be looking for something to needle about where none exist.

[manybellsdown]

@anotherone

Concerning the idea that TOS was misogynistic because a lack of female starship captains, remember that the very first episode featured a woman in command of Enterprise

And test audiences hated Number One (I’m assuming you’re referring to “The Cage” here). So yeah, product of its time and what they could get away with while actually having a viable show. It wasn’t misogynistic, but the audience sure was.

[anotherone]

I always thought Majel Barrett made a fierce Number One. She looks like a leader.

[anon61221983]

She was totally great as the first officer, for sure. I didn’t like her role as Nurse Chapel nearly as much. However, I think that she made the role of Deana Troi’s mother her own, and eventually some great stories evolved out of what started out as something of a joke. The ones that dealt with her aging were pretty great and I loved her showing up on DS9 to flirt with Odo.

[PhasmaFelis]

@William_George

I don’t think citing “Gene’s Vision” is a good argument. Roddenberry’s writing of women (and groups like the Irish or Scottish) is so full of 1950s-style casual bigotry that I have no doubt the guy would have made gay Sulu a limp-wristed lisper. (And really, all hints of progressiveness in Trek was pretty much due to the hard work of people like DC Fontana. Roddenberry was pretty much just there to use the casting couch.)

That’s really not fair. Roddenberry was progressive for his time, and it’s because of people like him that our standards have gotten higher since then.

[Nightflyer]

@alahmnat

I don’t think it benefits anyone to shield a piece of culture from criticism just because it’s (obviously) a product of its time. It’s entirely possible to praise TOS for its progressive stance on people of color (for instance), while also criticizing it for its hamfisted depictions of Native American culture, or its casually misogynistic argument that of course women can’t be starship captains. It does help us grow to examine the ways in which a depiction of a more evolved humanity living in a social utopia is vulnerable to the blind spots of its own time. Doing so is not calling the original series a mistake, but simply a recognition of how much farther we’ve managed to come (and, in some ways, how much farther we still have to go).

To borrow one of your analogies, of course you shouldn’t compare Rembrandt to photography by saying that photos are more realistic. You could, however, compare his use of composition, lighting, color, and form to a photographer’s, and you should critically examine his work’s shortcomings, how his work influenced later artists, and how they adapted or improved on his style. Doing so doesn’t diminish Rembrandt’s work, it gives it greater context and enhances our understanding of the continuum of human culture.

You said what I wanted to say, only much, much better than I would have. Thank you!

[enso]

Sulu’s penetrating virility with these men is evident.

[1vw2go]

I love the movie Serenity. One thing I noticed immediately and that felt so natural about it was the way colloquialisms were from other languages. It just seemed logical that languages would glom together like that. Obviously english was the main language but I just took that as being a product of it being made in the US. They really could have mixed it up but needing subtitles for every other word would have been a bit clunky.