Googler pens anti-diversity screed

Thanks for indulging my JAQing.

I find it amazing how differently different groups of people can interpret the same text.
Let me assure you that I never was even remotely tempted to agree with the text as interpreted by you (and most others here).

I am not well-trained in hearing the dog-whistles and shibboleths of American political culture. Apparently, the memo is full of things where reasonable, non-sexist Austrians of all genders might agree or politely disagree, but people in other parts of the world decide that he just avoided explicitly stating some far more disagreeable opinions, and therefore conclude that he’s not interested in honest debate.

Dogwhistles just don’t travel internationally.

I would have thought this is an inherently political subject. I really don’t see how this can be discussed apolitically. Why are things the way they are in our society, how do we want them to be, what do we do in order to get there? That’s the very definition of politics.

Also note that both sides in the debate claim that they want the same goals: equality for all, reduction of the gender gap, fact-based politics, open discussion instead of blind ideology. Both sides disagree about the facts and the means to reach the goals. Each side accuses the other about lying about their goals. After all, they’re not for equality, as they claim, they are for discrimination!
People are only ever this unproductive on political topics.

The hard part is defining what “reasonable” means in this context. Everyone thinks they’re being reasonable. He might not have provided examples of being “shamed” or “shouted down” in his memo, but he provided examples of what opinions he considers reasonable, and he got fired for them, and people are shaming him. So he did end up providing a concrete example after all.

This is also the time when the classic “computer nerd” stereotype developed. I mean the stereotype of a socially inept male, somehow stuck being a bright but awkward teenager for the rest of his life. I guess, for reasons somewhat ingrained into our culture, that is an image that fewer young women than young men feel comfortable identifying with.

Interesting. This is another thing that might not travel too well over international borders. I’m a man and haven’t written anything like this to my female colleagues, so I can’t really know, but my gut feeling is that if I copied your text it would be understood as “me strong man, me protect woman” and met with nothing but eye-rolls here in Austria.


In other news, here’s an interesting fact I recently learned about the percentage of women in computer science:

Among computer science students in Iran, the percentage of women is close to 50%.

Which confuses the heck out of me, because it doesn’t seem to fit any of the theories, neither the conservative nor the progressive theories. I’m willing to bet that Iranians have the same biology as Austrians and Americans. I am also willing to bet that Iranian culture is at least as male-dominated as Austrian or American culture.
So what’s going on?

There’s a big difference between taking an approach of, “I’ll protect you” and “I stand with you”. @anon89609066 seems like he at least was made a gesture to try to show some solidarity. I could be completely off base here though.

It’s actually more like 70%. I have read it’s an out from oppression.

5 Likes

Sure, there’s a big difference, and the response(s) @anon89609066 has received validate his approach. So none of you is off base here.

I just suspect that the same wording would be interpreted differently in a different cultural context (i.e., mine). Which I thought was a relevant example, because after all I had remarked how most people around me reacted differently to the same memo than you did.

2 Likes

I think because there is a time and place for everything. I wasn’t going to do it, but then I thought I can’t sit around saying nothing. Also note my word choices: I tried hard to be sending support, not acting like a pimp. There’s no perfect way. I probably could have word smithed it more.

2 Likes

Bryan Lunduke’s video about it and giving thoughts I find agreeable. He speaks many of the same things I want to say but in a far better way with far more tact than I am able to. Going from my personal experiences in just simple social interactions it’s always one group wanting to ‘protect’ themselves and their friends and will stomp all over anyone going 'hey can we talk? What you mean you making a statement and going ‘this is so’ counts as 'talking? I thought talking was I say things you say things and we try either agreeing on one or other point, or on some middle ground. What the hell.'

Wouldn’t know it by looking at Google themselves. People calling in sick ‘because they can’t handle the environment’ google’s own CEO returning from a vacation and posting a blog entry. Frankly Google is coming off as very bullying off of that.

Yeah… The idea that somebody saying that maybe the pool of potential female coders is in fact smaller because interests of talented women perhaps naturally skew towards things like pediatrics, veterinary care and psychology is “making me feel unsafe at work” and therefore has to be fired and demonized (and lumped together with nazis) is a bit too much.

It looks like we are at a point where the mere act of being insufficiently enthusiastic about all and any moral crusades and campaigns is ground enough for ostracism.

2 Likes

Not even ‘interests lay in other fields’ so much as ‘women appear to be more willing to avoid work environments that deny having any sort of life outside of the work place.’ Hell I’m afraid of speaking up here on the matter because i’m pretty sure the sharks here will tear me limb from limb.

However we are off topic from this thread. I did post in the actual google acting like intolerant screwheads thread a nice video by Bryan Lunduke.

1 Like

Obligatory side eye:

10 Likes

It plainly states men are superior to women in the workplace, and his critique of diversity programs is that Google is not getting a positive monetary gain from the program.

He said: “I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership.”

Not what you are saying by embellishing his words to make them sound better than they are.

He doesn’t say that either, but he did say that Google is forcing conservatives into the closet and that the discrimination against men in their diversity programs means that Google will not be able to get their work load accomplished. However, unlike @8080256256 simply editing his words to make them sound better you are flat lying about the content of the memo entirely.

6 Likes

oh hey hi there. New face i haven’t seen scream at me before. To put blunt? Many activist groups, in spite and separate from the good they do in furthering diversification in the workplace and a normalization of differing views, often see it as a zero sum game in that ‘oh men are fair targets now, any man that speaks up must be shunned.’

And these people going ‘oh dear I must take sick days because of how hostile this place is and how frightened i am.’ Put on your grownup pants and go to fucking work. What’s happening here isn’t discussion it’s demonization. Did this guy put a few things in bullet points i don’t agree with in total? Sure. However a few of these things i do agree with. So calling me a liar is more than a bit much. You people are acting like he’s super nazi hitler stalin mao aids cancer for posting a fucking memo.that was only for a specific group he was around and was likely never intended to leave the work group he was part of.

You people are treating it like he marched to the front door of Google HQ and nailed a ‘women should be barefoot and pregnant slaving over a hot stove’ thousand page manifesto.

DIscuss. Don’t demonize this guy. He has a few wrong notions, but he did bring up a few trends that should be cross-checked and then discussed rather than ‘you misogynist sack of shit leave.’ Or by eyeballing me and squealing when I am just wanting everyone to calm the fuck down and stop acting like this is the end of the world.

I’ve said my piece. As I said before, this is off-topic for this thread We should move this to the proper thread.

1 Like

8 Likes

If you suddenly feel like you now have a “target on your back” due solely to your gender or how you look, welcome to my world, 24/7/365.

That said most of the activists I personally know don’t believe in “zero sum” scenarios; nor do they think this is some kind of “game.”

10 Likes

I had reply for that last comment of yours, but since it got eaten, there’s no point in posting it now.

Citation needed.

To me the two statements are basically identical. Of course there are biological differences between genders. For starters, men enjoy the privilege of being able to father children up to a fairly advanced age. It may not be socially and genetically ideal, but a 45-year old man can still generally start a family while a 45-year old woman will face much greater physiological obstacles and risks. This alone is bound to have some aggregate effect on career choices.

1 Like

Larger surrounding controversy aside, is that particular statement actually false? If so, would it still be false if you changed “may explain” to “may partly explain” and deleted “and leadership” from the end?

I’m not pretending there isn’t sexism. I’m not pretending that any level of sexism is acceptable. I would readily agree that women in tech would be exposed to much more sexism than in more gender equal fields even in the hypothetical world where men in tech were substantially less sexist than average, simply because that sexism would be concentrated on many fewer women per man.

None of this has anything to do with the question of “Why are there so few women in tech.” Women have made huge (though not total) strides in overcoming sexism in plenty of other formerly-male-dominated fields. Why is this one different? That’s an honest question, btw, I’d love to learn more.

It also has nothing to do with the question of how much, and in what ways, women’s and men’s interests differ at a statistical/population level, when those differences appear, why, and how much that influences career path choice.

1 Like

I see what you just did there.

1 Like

4 Likes

tng-riker-what

12 Likes

Read his memo. It’s not hard to grok his intent there unless you are willfully ignoring it.

7 Likes