Not at all. I was simply pointing out that your assertion that “there’s no such thing” as being racist against white people was wrong. But if we do compare racism against white people with racism by white people, it’s very obvious that racism against white people is a tiny, tiny fraction of a fraction of the racism by white people. Racism against people of color is pervasive and historic and continues to be a very terrible problem all over the world. I’m sure we can agree on that, at least.
We’re not talking about “two episodes” if we’re talking about white farmers being victimized in Zimbabwe. You really ought to read up on it. It’s part of the “system” in Zimbabwe that white farmers are being “systematically” removed from their farms. Your assertion that this kind of racism doesn’t exist is demonstrably wrong.
You might not like it because it challenges your strongly held notions of what racism is. Nonetheless, it is a definition found in most dictionaries. Dismissing it as “crap” is no different than a young earth creationist dismissing carbon dating. Maybe you can find a definition in a dictionary somewhere that defines racism as only a systemic
phenomenon. If so, please provide a link. If not, you should consider that you might be in error.
how about learning history from somewhere other than wikipedia? There are a ton of books on the Ottoman Empire that you could read. Suraiya Faroqhi wrote on excellent history of daily life in the Empire, Subjects of the Sultan, which looks at the empire from the ground up.
You could also read up on slave life in the US, maybe try Kolchin’s comparative study on slavery and serfdom, Unfree labor. Or you could read American Slavery, American Freedom on just American slavery is a classic.
No, it’s not. In fact, in the U.S. context, reverse racism pretty much doesn’t exist.
Objectification works against the disempowered because they are disempowered. The process doesn’t work in reverse, or at least, making it work is a lot tougher than one might think.
Feministing didn’t like this bit by Louis CK, but I think it’s funny and it does illustrate some key concepts about white, male privilege:
But I guess he’s wrong about not being able to hurt white men’s feelings… Seems to be lots of hurt feelings from white dudes around here on this thread.
Edited to add: Also, he talks about historical context to Jay Leno “on paper, they are great”:
“It’s just that you seem to be on the right track about how wrong racism is, smiley but you also seem to be unaware of the complexities involved.”
Was I also wrong when I said that you seem to be on the right track of how wrong racism is?
I’m not attacking you, its my perception based on your previous comments and the assumptions needed for them to both be true and consistent with your stand on racism (opposed obviously), as well as to make sense from my perspective of the world, is there some prejudice involved? most likely inevitably so
Hmmm… Well, when I’m confused, I find it best to backtrack and clarify, so let me do that.
The only thing I’ve argued here is that racism exists on an individual level as well as a systemic one. (I think I also mentioned that I didn’t find the comic to be very funny.)
I’ve argued against the notion that racism only exists on a systemic level, because that oversimplifies something that is, indeed, profoundly complex. It’s complex on a social level and it’s complex on an individual level.
I suspect you and I are in agreement that racism is full of complexities; historical, sociological, and psychological.
Why assume that comics of color make jokes for the sake of white people? A lot of black American comics, for instance, make in-jokes for other black people. If white people or others don’t get it, nor the explanatory context around it, that’s their problem. And their loss.
I wonder… If we looked up the definition of slave or negro (hey, how about racism!) from Webster’s in the 1800’s or any other previous attempt to collect the definition of words… would we get any sense of the morality involved in slavery?
That would certainly enlighten us on whether a battle for semantics gets us anywhere closer to the truth.
I don’t have the link handy, but at the Library of Congress there are first hand accounts from former slaves recorded in the 30s. It’s very eye opening in the sense of getting a glimpse of ever day life, as well as what events stuck out as important to them. It’s also show how somethings never change. Several of them complain that the younger generation is lazy and doesn’t want to work.
You are spot on. I am always amused, in a sad way, when white folks in the USA start shouting about use of the N word by blacks, and reverse racism and disenfranchisement. I have raised my sons to Question Authority and Don’t Trust Whitey. And we are Anglo Euro Mutts, so yeah…
Nope. Sorry. I don’t buy it. Racism is racism is racism. It’s all wrong. Your only argument here is that some forms racism is more powerful and dehumanising than others - which is true and sounds to me like all the more reason to not be racist. At all.
Yep, I have some familiarity with those. Those are great resources for historians of enslaved people in America - this was one of the programs for artists and writers during the New Deal, too.
There’s already been solid evidence given in this thread that this is not the definition. If you’re going to deny that, back up your argument. Otherwise, the person sticking their fingers in their ears is you.
Your definition would mean that when it starts, it isn’t racism, because there’s no history of systematic oppression there… and then at some undefined point there’s suddenly enough of a history that it becomes racism and then never stops being racism, ever. That’s just silly, and it’s counterproductive if you’re actually wanting to break the cycle.
As long as we’re talking comedy and racism, there are two clips I find utterly fascinating. In this first one, Louie CK says something that seems incredibly racist, but which makes Patrice O’Neill laugh hysterically. I would have loved to ask Patrice (who was openly very sensitive to racial issues and comments), “Why did that joke, told by a white guy, work for you? And what would have prevented it from working?” Here it is:
In this next clip, Jeff Ross tells some of the most racist jokes to an audience full of black folks and they’re laughing as they obviously can’t believe he’s actually saying those things.
These two clips fascinate me, because they reveal just how complex and frequently mysterious issues of race and racism are.
This is an excellent point. Getting tangled up in what “racism” is can be a diversion from the fight against bigotry. Maybe words like “bigotry” and “prejudice” are more easily agreed upon and, therefore, more practical. I don’t know. I think the people arguing here agree more than they disagree on the important things, however.
I’m arguing that systemic racism is the only thing that matters at this time, because it masks individual racism, because:
You don’t have to be racist to perpetuate racism
You don’t have to be racist to gain privilege.
It creates confirmation bias
The imbalance of power is what allows comics like Aamer to make fun of white people for being offended.
Related to 5, things are not equal so its hard to judge a white racist the same as a black racist. It could be argued that since white racism created an unfair world for black people, white racism is therefore irrational and self serving, black racism is irrational also, but there is also an element that is a response to actual injuries. There is some truth to be glimpsed there.
Now, I believe the answer to the next question will be illuminating:
Why do you think I (or anybody else) thought this video funny?
Well, I may be wrong here, but this sounds like the kind of zero tolerance approach that expels a kid from school for making a gun shaped gesture.
Not saying you’re wrong, but, does it get us anywhere?
I say no, it doesn’t.
The power imbalance is what masks the truth if we treat all transgressions as equal.
If you are white and think black people are less than human because they are black, you are racist and wrong.
If you are black and think white people are inhuman and to boot, they don’t treat you as fully human, Then you are racist, but you’re not completely wrong.
