It worked for Dubai. Their only failing was building the wrong kind. But the infrastructure itself was sound within its limits.
Gosh, itâs almost like reality is more complicated than good-guy / bad-guy.
We didnât âfind out how badâ subsidizing the entire solar industry works out in 2009. We found out that it is possible for at least one solar company to fail despite subsidies - not surprising, since the solar industry is an industry, and all industries will have successes and failures. If a single failure demonstrated a whole industry wasnât viable, nobody would do anything.
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[quote=âawjt, post:15, topic:68135, full:trueâ]
But what happens when we replace oil with something else and demand drops out the bottom? [/quote]
Oh it will eventually happen. But I think it will be awhile. As say Europe and the US slowly shift away from it, China is just now ramping up consumption. And Africa has lots of untapped potential gas guzzlers. Until the tech finally gets cheap that even 3rd world countries can afford it, oil/gas has a future (IMHO, YMMV).
But yes, eventually it will be selling ice to Eskimos. Actually - I predict when that happens, you will see micro-refineries - like micro-brews. People selling boutique gasoline and oil for peoplesâ antique cars and machines (well, all machines need oil).
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See how the world totals for crude have flat-lined?
We are currently experiencing peak oil.
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The fact that the OP doesnât come to a clear decision about whether or not $50 a barrel oil is good or bad does not make it âconfusedâ. Here in the real world, very few states of affairs are purely good or purely bad. Usually there are benefits and drawbacks to any particular situation or course of action. The OP points this out for oil prices.
Au contraire. Renewables are more expensive than oil, and so putting money into renewables actually increases the average cost of energy which allows oil prices to rise to meet as long as demand stays constant.
As someone else pointed out, a single failed firm does not indicate investment or subsidy of that entire industry is a bad idea. But I wanted to point out that a failed firm is a sign of a healthy market because market competition manifests in the form of some firms failing and others surviving in a sort of Darwinian process. If the subsidies were preventing firms from failing that would be a sign of serious market distortion.
âboot on the throat of the petroleum industryââŚis that really how youâd characterize the current state of affairs? The oil industry enjoys myriad subsidies to the tune of billions of dollars a year, and as a result of that and our entire societyâs dependence on it, itâs basically the most profitable industry ever.
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You might be surprised to learn that insiders in the shale gas industry are themselves investing (both personally and corporately) in various renewable industries.
Putting all your eggs in one basket is stupid for any entity: individual, company, or country.
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Of course when an organization does something that is not in its best interest, youâll often find that action is in the best interest of the people RUNNING that organizationâŚThere may even be some dynastic politics involved in thisâŚwhich royal Saudis can pump oil the cheapest?
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Yet still not soon enough.
https://discourse-cdn.global.ssl.fastly.net/boingboing/images/emoji/twitter/crying_cat_face.png
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I know right? I am crying because I had to click the link to see the crying kitty, which made me cry from a technological standpoint.
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So what if Saudi Arabia donât have a cash surplus any more? They can just borrow money, same as most other countries already do.
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Wrong. The existence of a huge margin, and that this margin subsidises an unsustainable state was very much the essence of the article. You didnât need the problem spelled out to grasp it, nor did anyone else, so what on earth are you whining about?
I just want to know where the articleâs gif came from. Iâm sure Iâve seen the movie it came from but canât think what it was.
UmâŚwhoâs whining? The point of the article is that cheap oil will bankrupt the Saudis in 5 years (itâs like, in the title and everything). This premise is absolutely absurd.
We all know thatâs not gonna happen because the Saudis will simply lower their production quotas to boost global prices - or be forced to reduce their subsidized social spending; which they will do only as a last resort. Right now the Saudis are purposefully keeping production high in order to force out competition who cannot sustain losses like they can.
The sky is not falling in the Kingdom just yet - nor will it. Theyâre playing geo-political chess here.
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I donât see much truth or maybe itâs simply ignorance but the subsidized solar industry failure list is very long. If you check some of these subsidy amounts are very high and these outfits either went under or are in deep trouble filing bankruptcy. Evergreen Solar ($25 million)* SpectraWatt ($500,000)*Solyndra ($535 million)*Beacon Power ($43 million)*Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)SunPower ($1.2 billion)First Solar ($1.46 billion)Babcock and Brown ($178 million) EnerDelâs subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*Amonix ($5.9 million)Fisker Automotive ($529 million)Abound Solar ($400 million)*A123 Systems ($279 million)*Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*Johnson Controls ($299 million)Brightsource ($1.6 billion)ECOtality ($126.2 million)Raser Technologies ($33 million)*Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*Olsenâs Crop Service and Olsenâs Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*Range Fuels ($80 million)*Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*GreenVolts ($500,000)Vestas ($50 million)LG Chemâs subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*Navistar ($39 million)Satcon ($3 million)*Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*Mascoma Corp. ($100 million).
Up to now, how many corporations in each and every industry that we take for granted failed? Do you think that oil companies just sprung fully formed, as they are right, into the world? Think about how many airlines that existed in the 1970s are now long gone and how many new ones are cropping up as we speak? Or maybe some of these failures have to do outside pressure and how much do you think it has to do with internal problems?
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⌠Not sure if serious.
Fisker was a car company, not solar (and yes I know they had miniature solar panels, but that didnât get them subsidies)
SunPower is still around, and even Motley Fool likesâem.
A123 systems makes batteries and is still around.
Beacon power makes flywheels, went bankrupt, paid back its loan, and restructured.
Nevada geothermal is doing fine, and was partially funded by the American Reinvestment and Recovery act. Plus its, uh, geothermal.
Brightsource is doing fine. Donât know where the billion dollar number came from, since their largest investment was $300 million from NRG Energy.
Are you just pointing out that tax credits and government backed loans exist?
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"Aided by at least $43 million in assistance from the government of Massachusetts and an innovative solar energy technology, Evergreen Solar emerged in the last three years as the third-largest maker of solar panels in the United States.
But now the company is closing its main American factory, laying off the 800 workers by the end of March and shifting production to a joint venture with a Chinese company in central China. Evergreen cited the much higher government support available in China."
Truth is we need to subsidized more energy research. Solar cells made in china come at a higher co2 cost because of the coal fire plants used to produce the vast amounts of energy involved in production.
BTW cnn money is a horrible source of ânewsâ please look elsewhere for information. They are to money as the history channel is to history. As previously mentioned the IMF numbers only reflect the current spending plans which can be changed on the fly(nice thing about a kingdom). Saudi Arabia has large cash reserves and is fully aware of itâs position in the world. Ironically they are investing huge in solar. Not only production of energy but manufacturing panels as well.
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As people have said up-thread, cheap oil will eventually bankrupt Saudi. They know this. But they are also betting that it will bankrupt the Russians and the Iranians first, allowing the Saudis proxy army to win the war in the middle east. Hey, it worked in the 80s.
Overall, Coryâs premise is spot on. Saudi Arabia exports violence and extremist religious fundamentalism throughout the world. They have bankrolled eveyone from the Mujahedeen to ISIS. They are the problem. Itâs time to stop buying from them. Even at $50 a barrel, the cost is too high.
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Gee, youâre not just a pretty face!
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Not âjustâ, but mostly.
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