In fantasy worlds, historical accuracy is a lie

As far as games go, I think that that is basically Dwarf Fortress. As far as ‘generic’ simulations, I’m not sure that we have anything like the necessary knowledge(and potentially, the necessary computational power), to achieve that sort of simulation without very heavy tweaking and a lot of fudging and constant-fiddling that help generate nice looking results; but more or less invalidate any pretense of ‘simulation’(in much the same way that SpeedTree does an impressively good job turning a bit of human oversight and a library of primitives into something that looks just like what the type of forest you want should look like; but has absolutely zero overlap with being an ecological simulation).

You could probably do for the historical movement of populations what the SimCity series does for urbanism within reasonable computational bounds; but that’s very much an ‘add a great many concepts manually, define some relatively high level rules, fudge substantially where necessary in order to ensure that the outcome looks plausible’ exercise. Interesting, fun, and definitely not useless; but much higher on verisimilitude than accuracy.

You would need the data. It’s an open question how to distinguish large-scale population movements from smaller-scale population movements with elite dominance, from trade, from religious conversion, or from any other ways cultures and cultural practices can spread.

Well, probably I should have used “classic” rather than “classical”, but let’s just leave it as the sort of education many middle class men and women received in the 60s and 70s in English-speaking countries.

(Aside: as far as a true classical education goes, I’ve only met one peer who received a classical education - Latin, Greek, rhetoric, religious studies, the works… Needless to say, she was European, educated by nuns. She was also mad as anything about the lack of any physics inher HS curriculum beyond what was covered in Principia Mathematica.)

Most moderately academically inclined middle-class students growing up in that era (i.e. the readers of Fantasy fiction at the time) would be exposed to a fair dollop of medieval European history along with a smattering of various other ancient cultures. (i.e. Just enough history to develop the stereotypes that you see in most Fantasy fiction.)

Stories involving the fall of Roman Britain, Charlemagne, Battle of Hastings, Battle of Vienna,Viking invasions, etc., etc. all form a basis for the myths that were part of Fantasy’s roots at the time. It’s through the study of history, often at a very young age, that the hazy, inaccurate, but deeply laid ideas about what medieval life was all about are built.

On the literary side, such education would include the various classics of English literature that also provide fodder for the archetypes of Fantasy. Shakespeare’s influence is deeply felt, as are chapter books for the very young on legends of Arthur, Robin Hood, and even Ivanhoe.

The imagination upon which Tolkien, et al. built his world was already well tilled by the educational system of the time.

Guilty. I spent much of HS looking through that medieval high fantasy/Tolkien looking-glass at my fellow humans. The fact that girls drank, smoked, cursed and more, came as something of a shock. So no, I didn’t date much and unsurprisingly made it through HS with my virtue intact. But…I had an awesome Paladin with a killer back-story.

Anyway, I love Bioware and the diversity of lifestyles their games typically embrace ( for ex: Krem, Maevaris Tilani ) I believe the POC concern is valid, but if any game company is capable of doing right by marginalized, trope-i-fide, or otherwise misrepresented peoples --it’s probably Bioware.

Further reading:
Mike Williams of USGamer celebrates Dragon Age: Inquisition’s “Incidental Diversity”

Kill Screen’s Will Partin critiques Dragon Age: Inquisition’s “Post-Racial Fantasy”
http://killscreendaily.com/articles/dragon-ages-post-racial-high-fantasy/

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I think there are two very different levels to this issue, and one is very easy to fix while the other is very hard, so it’s important to separate them.

The easy fix is the visual part: just give human characters a human range of appearances, even if it feels contrived, because the reasons not to do so just aren’t as good as the reasons for doing it. “Welcome to the world of imagination! First, imagine you’re a straight white man.”

As soon as you talk about accuracy or consistency, you hit the deeper problem of whether and how games actually represent lives different to the developers’. E.g., if an isolated iron-age village has a range of races, how come they haven’t all mingled together? Are they segregated? Why? How does that affect the story? This is a big subject, and it could be interesting to see some games confront it, but most games inevitably won’t.

But I think, if you’re not going to address race in your game, the default should be unexplained (superficial) diversity rather than unexplained uniform whiteness.

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I dunno I see the same sort of divide, but I think there’s a lot more to it than that.

The first problem as I see it is simple lack of consideration. For the most part when fantasy worlds don’t include non-European people or cultures its because its just never occurs to them to do so. Whether because of lack of interest/skill, or because they’ve embraced (lazily or otherwise) certain social biases or media tropes. The whole “its more historically accurate thing” is an after the fact justification. Because while the prevalence of non-whites in medieval Europe is a bit invisible, the large amount of contact between diverse people at the national and cultural level is impossible to ignore. In fact it makes up a large portion of the History you’re supposedly trying to be accurate to.

But the lack of consideration kind of goes two ways, and I think this plays into some of the ways the characters of color in the new Dragon age don’t quite work. A bigger problem, for me, is that the people creating these worlds often don’t bother contextualizing or fleshing out the lack or presence of other cultures or POC in their game world. So ok there’s no POC in your world, not immediately a bad thing. Its the prevelance of that depiction, and not neccisarily any single example that’s the problem. But like you said why? How? What’s the history. Maybe there’s reletively little contact between the culture you’re depicting and outside people. And there are fears of plague or cultural invasion. So their are people of color but where we’re viewing things, they are few and limited to quarantined ports. That’s way more interesting, inclusive etc than just ignoring the whole thing, and you aren’t even required to depict more diverse people to do so.

So here’s where DA:I’s problem comes in. If you do take the (admittedly better) approach of depicting diverse humans (or peoples/species whatever) then you still kind of need that context. The non-human species get the dignity of backstory and history, as do the major (European inspired) nations and cultures we deal with. But for their part there doesn’t seem to be much of that done for your various non-white humans. Where do they come from, where do they stand in Thedas society, or even just the Kingdoms we’re dealing with. Maybe you go the Star Trek route. And Humans in Thedas have relative racial harmony within themselves. But you need to tell us why, how it came about, are there hold outs? It all just craves context whichever route you go. The failure to provide that context is part and parcel of the same approach that leads to exclusionary depictions in the first place.

Which I think is sort of what you were getting at anyway. Set in the right direction, but not there yet.

The other significant thing I see going on is that with Fantasy there’s a big tradition of going at issues of identity politics, race more specifically, international politics etc through the metaphor of non-human races. A lot of the issues about depiction, roles of various societies are sort of shunted off to the elves and dwarves or whatever. So there seems to be a lazy tendency to assume since you’re already dealing with that stuff, you don’t have to deal with it in terms of the real world, or the humans you depict. You get that first “lack of consideration” thing coming back. Since you’re already dealing with race, colonialism whatever by having green people you can just depict “regular” humans (with the racist/socially reinforced idea that regular = white assumed).

In terms of Dragon Age this actually makes the lack of context for human cultures a little more uncomfortable. Because its a series that explicitly deals with identity and social issues. Usually through the lens of non-human species, and an increasing inclusion of LGBT issues. But it apparently these things are important to deal with but not important enough to deal with using characters who actually human? And actually in situations that match up with real world conceptions of race?

The whole dynamic makes things rather confused. Like the article in question names both Zavran and Sten as people of color. So Sten might be depicted with certain features that resemble a person of color, but he’s explicitly not human. Zavran is even thornier. Sure he’s got a tan and an accent, but the nation he hails from is (IIRC) intended to represent Italy. So aside from not being human, he isn’t neccisarily intended to represent a non-white human culture. So are they POC? Are all the non-human characters POC (honestly I think if these two count then yeah)? Are there Elves of Color? Do these depictions obviate the need to address similar concerns within the human cultures? Or issues of this sort within non-human cultures? Isn’t this whole edifice of non-human species (termed races) a bit weird, and implicitly tied to some really wacky old racial theories from the real world.

It just seems all of it could be avoided by just fleshing out your characters and worlds more. And refusing to ignore/engage with the tendency to limit the cultures and people you depict to existing lazy tropes.

:::sigh::: I know. I wish we were still discussing the finer points of powdering our wigs, the best codpiece/furbelow manufacturers, or the why tennis-scene sucks since rackets were introduced.

Because these games don’t appeal to Medieval historians, they appeal to the half-remembered Medieval tropes of our childhood. That’s the level of “I know this place” that game developers are trying to achieve. It’s the same reason they cling to archetypes - archetypes reach people and “feel right” (at least until they don’t).

This still reads as a potential problem, however. Maybe we could do our part to make the archetypes “feel right” in ways that are more inclusive?

I don’t think that my view of Medieval Europe is unchanging and rigid, and feel it’s perfectly possible for me to accept that persons of colour can exist in that archetype and that I can even get to a point of it feeling right with continued exposure mixed with a willingness to accept this vision. I think the latter is important, and I think it’s important to reflect on why someone may be unwilling to accept this vision for Medieval Europe.

If you do take the (admittedly better) approach of depicting diverse humans (or peoples/species whatever) then you still kind of need that context.

I would say, this is something to hope for-- if different identities are shown, I want to see the details of how that works-- but realistically, many works won’t have the insight or wherewithal to do the subject justice, and it’s like, be careful what you wish for, especially when games are in fact made by privileged white guys.

For example, I read Peter F Hamilton’s books. He’s, how do I put it, not a sophisticated chronicler of the human condition. But he randomly assigns varied sexual orientations to his millions of thinly-drawn characters (possibly using an Excel macro), and there’s a certain dorky charm to that. If he tried to examine sexual identity in depth, I strongly suspect I would be less charmed, but as it stands, he’s at least saying that people like me are included in his worlds, and I appreciate that.

By contrast, a number of more serious sci-fi writers (Robert Heinlein, Frank Herbert, Aldous Huxley, Dan Simmons) have considered male homosexuality more deeply, treating us to some richly offensive bits of wisdom on the subject. I feel like Heinlein and Huxley’s hearts were in the right place, and Herbert was at least thought-provoking on sexuality, while Simmons is a flat-out dick; but none of them did me any favors by trying to directly portray what being a gay man is like.

So in most cases, I think token diversity, although feeble, is the right place to leave it; just as “historical accuracy” doesn’t demand an all-white cast, having multiple races doesn’t demand awkward whitesplaining of real-life racial issues. And of course it might be good to see games not made by white or Asian people, too.

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I just rather it was thought out, given some sort of attempt at depth, whichever way you go about it. Just presenting diversity with no effort or comment is fine. I think things could be better, but I think its a bit disingenuous in the context of works explicitly created to deal with those subjects or subjects similar/related to them. When there’s an awful lot of effort spent on explaining the history, origins and various standings of the cultures your focusing on. And those cultures are mostly white. And then you just don’t bother when that person happens to be brown, or just roll them in with all the other brown people as being from a single place. Its kind of weird, it breaks the suspension of disbelief a bit. And makes your non-white (or otherwise not from a focus culture) characters come off as thinly drawn, and often time stereotypical. Its especially jarring when you’ve got a world built up around racial conflicts between humans and non-humans, and an extended metaphorical story about religious oppression of “born this way” mages. Suddenly you pop up with a major character is who is black (Vivienne), and holds a position of power in a nation that is almost exclusively white, but there’s almost no explanation of who she is or her people are, where they come from, how they got to Fereldan (I seem to remember it being mentioned that’s where she and her immediate family were from), whether its accepted that she’s black, how accepting she is of being the odd woman out etc. That’d be largely fine on its own I think, but its just kind of doesn’t fit with everything else going on when the Elf standing next to her gets most of those answers. I also remember there being a handful of black Dwarves in the earlier games as well. Which is interesting, fantasy doesn’t tend to put any diversity at all into its non-human groups. And there’s no comment at all there, they’re just sort of there. Which is weird, I kind of what to know what that’s about. But it does point to a broader attempt by Bioware to talk about broad cultural groups and nations as opposed to engaging with specific ethnic relations in each one.

And I don’t think its necessarily required to deal with these issues directly in all works, just some awareness by the creators and some effort at world building that gives it a context of some sort. Just giving every aspect of your work the same dignity of thinking things through as your stock Anglo dragon slayers (or whatever).Though it tends to be much more of an issue with typical high fantasy, since its taking place in the past and clear analogues are so often drawn with real world history or cultures (and usually European at that). Works that bear a closer resemblance to the real present world or look to the future can sort of coast a bit more on that association. But laying out, even in background, who these people are and how they got here (or why they aren’t here) in even a basic way comes off with a lot more complexity than just throwing some diversity in there willy-nilly. As would making the cultures you’re focusing on stock white Europe analogues less often.

In terms of “be careful what you wish for”, I’d rather see creators try, stumble or fail, and do better next time. It tends to be more interesting and a good driver of progress. And while there are certainly works out there that push (accidentally or deliberately) heinous or bigoted shit, those are mostly things that are 1. deliberately pushing/representing a bigoted agenda or 2. trying, failing, and hopefully doing better next time. I’d rather be able to identify or avoid the heinous shit written by heinous people. Rather than it floating under the radar because their chosen way of diminishing cultures not their own is to leave them out completely, or relegate them to scattered, token stereotypes.

I also suspect the thinner less thought out aspects of these things in Dragon Age specifically could simple be because they’re new. A lot of the newer additions, and expanded content, of the latest game came off as lacking depth (or even any purpose). On top of that they’ve had less time to develop.

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I’m pleased to point out that Oglaf has both a medieval fantasy setting and a complete mix of skin tones. If you are at work, I highly recommend you check it out :wink:

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As far as I’m concerned, you just won the Internet today. I laughed long and hard at that sentence.

It’s already being done. If I look at my children and their peers, I notice several things: First, medieval Europe is basically a non-entity to them. There’s barely any resonance in the archetypes. Secondly, the fantasy-related media that they do consume is rife with depictions of other races.

Hence for the under-30 white, male crowd, I’m fairly certain that having a more or less random racial mix of characters in their game would not even register. Now, that said, I’m certain that having an all-white case would probably not register either (it’s not so much racial awareness and racial obliviousness), but I’m pretty certain we’re far past the point were adding non-white, non-male characters would harm a game’s sales.

tl;dr - I think we’re already past the point of where the archetypes lodged in the minds of 50 year-olds matter to video game sales.

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