Were it christians, muslims, buddhists I’d agree there but not only do we Jews see ourselves as a people (whose traditional religion is Judaism) but the world at large sees us that way too. Were this not so the Marranos in Spain would have never had problems after they became apostates to Christianity. The problem from the perspective here isn’t our religion, but the fact that we exist at all and far worse that we’ve dared to learn to stand up for ourselves.
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I agree but I don’t think the Marranos example is valid one. The accusations against the Marranos were dominated by religious arguments. The connection between jewish religion, ethnicity and nationality is a trend/idea that became dominant not until the late 18th century.
Is basketball a big thing in Israel? I knew Maccabi Tel-Aviv only as a Football/Soccer Club.
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Some people always confuse the inability to trample you with your intention to rule over them somehow. It seems like a bully mentality to me. I can’t subjugate them, that’s how I can tell they’re trying to oppress me! Shortdick syndrome on a scale of nations.
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Could you provide some evidence for this? The term am kodesh and goy kodesh are found in the Chumash and Rashi comments on these terms in exactly the context I put forth. The Talmud specifically discusses the idea in a number of contexts as well.
In any case had the issue with the Marranos been one strictly of religious practice then why would there have been need for many to flee to other countries?
In any case I don’t know that much about basketball in the State of Israel except that its at least a little popular. I live in Japan where its pretty much impossible to see a good game of hoops.
I’m not disputing a separate religious or cultural identity but the connection to a secular national one. The view that is today mostly associated with Haredi orthodoxism that rejects nationalism as a doctrine and considers Judaism a religion first was dominant during the high and late middle ages and the early modern period. The only easily accessible source I can provide now is the wikipedia article on Zionism.
As far as I know the Conversos were seen as apostates from christianity and therefore prosecuted by the Inquisition while the jews were persecuted because they allegedly instigated the conversos.
I’m certain if you looked you could find people suggesting via Twitter that the Russians should be sent back off to gulags, the Japanese should be nuked some more, and that Germany should be carved up and balkanized again.
People say stupid things. People think stupid things. I don’t see how general outrage not actually directed at them personally changes what they think or say. Hell, even focused outrage tends to not do anything but piss people off.
There are only two real ways I know of to deal with bigots.
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Ignore them. Don’t feed the trolls, and you rob them of power. If no one listens to them or gives them attention, they slowly become obsolete and disappear.
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Change their hearts. Ghandi didn’t earn India’s independence by angrily and bitterly telling off the British for being Imperialist bastards - rather, he sought to establish meaningful and positive communication, and forgave them their often quite horrible wrongs.
The second option works more quickly, but it is very difficult and painful. The first option is slower, but takes less effort.
But responding with outrage? It doesn’t have the intended effect of shaming the transgressors into better behavior. It alienates them, makes them resentful. They feel like people are just out to attack them. It builds for them an illusion of conspiracy and oppression. It reinforces in their minds the fantasy that they are being victimized, and that serves as further “proof” of the nefarity of their hated group of others.
By loudly voicing our outrage at bigots, we give them strength. The abuses we heap upon them justify their beliefs in their eyes. Why would we be treating them so badly if we weren’t pawns in some larger game, controlled by The Government, or The Jew, or The Black Man, or The Ruskie, or The Reptiloids, or The Liberals, or The Illuminati, or whatever.
I’m not saying don’t be angry or annoyed or offended by bigots. I’m not saying accept them. I’m saying either somehow find the strength to reach out to them and try to show them the error of their ways, or ignore them and let them fall pray to the march of time. Just don’t feed the trolls.
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Conflating zionism with my point is a mistake. It is also a mistake to look at this as a dichotomy of secular vs religious identity. This is not about any issue of the land or State of Israel at all and you have perhaps misread or misunderstood the basis of the segments of Orthodoxy, not limited to the Haredim, who oppose the current system of the State of Israel on theological grounds.
What most now perceive as issues of religious identity stem from segments of Jewish law from the Torah and Talmud regarding the Jewish people as a whole as a nation (am yisrael). Maimonides in his explanation of the Torah commandments and laws make clear in Hilchos Shabbos 20:14 that a convert is subject to all matters of Jewish law the same as a native born Jew. This point is reiterated in his well known letter to Obedaiah of Yemen. This includes legal matters of inheritance, laws of commerce, settlement of disputes and all other matters of Torah law wether relating to religious observance or not. To deofuscate this further, a convert is not just one who takes on the practice of the religion of Judaism but one who accepts upon themselves all Torah law in all matters. Consider it more like naturalization but biblical era hebrew did not differentiate between the concepts.
None of what Maimonides writes on these matters is original to the time period he wrote as its all straight from Torah, Mishnah and Talmud.
The last few thousand years seem to show that neither ignoring nor appeasing them works too well for us but from a certain angle I agree with you. the last grand rabbi of the sect I affiliate with once said “the non Jew respects the Jew who respects his religion”. This was said in regards to the commandments of treating others well and respecting the civil laws of the countries we dwell in as those things are in fact Torah commandments.
I don’t want to derail the thread about the Israeli championship further but I did a bit of digging around in the old seminar papers of mine from my time studying and found an essay from Julius H. Schoeps:
“Zionismus oder der Kampf um die nationale Wiedergeburt” in: Julius H. Schoeps (Hrsg.): Zionismus. Texte zu seiner Entwicklung. 2. überarbeitete Auflage, Wiesbaden 1983.
It’s obviously in german so I don’t know if it’s of interest. But that’s the text I remember reading were it is mentioned that during the early modern period most jews in western europe disassociated their religion from their identity as jewish people.
Looked up this gentleman and its completely unsurprising he would make this claim. His genetic and professional roots come from this exact historical revisionist agenda.
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I do not share your view and don’t have the slightest clue what you looked up to get to your conclusion.
Gentleman seems to be a director of the Moses Mendelson foundation. Mendelson is considered the father of the Haskalah movement which was all about assimilation and historical revisionism of denying Jewish legal and intellectual tradition. Turns out the gentleman in question is in fact a descendant of Mendelson. My source being the wikipedia article about him.
Basketball is big in Israel. That doesn’t mean Israelis are actually good at it. Like most Euroleague clubs, Maccabi hires professional athletes from outside, primarly African Americans. There are four in the squad this season, and this win is primarily their work. Maccabi’s advantage against other Euroleague clubs comes from how Tel Aviv fans are good at not pelting African athletes with bananas on the court or greeting them with monkey sounds.
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