Jamaica wants slavery reparations from the UK

[gregmcph]

Ahh. I keep writing reponses and deleting them. I should just accept that I am Guilty.

[gregmcph]

But its true. But I am told otherwise.

[Brainspore]

@failquail

Whilst i’d fully back official apologies for a countries past misdeeds, reparations for generations long dead are another matter entirely.

I think most wronged populations would prefer the “keep your apology and give us the reparations” approach. As you note, the people who really owe that apology are long dead, but their descendants still enjoy the spoils.

[andy_hilmer]

@Medievalist

middle-class Britons

Am I getting this right?

Not even slightly, unless you completely disregard the text of the demand.

[TailOfTruth]

@Prentiz

it’s direct compensation to actual victims

You may not have read the full article if you think that the french government is only providing compensation to actual victims. How would they provide compensation to the victims who did not survive but instead perished in concentration camps? Which is what happened to the majority of them. The article actually says,

… with relatives and spouses receiving several thousand dollars each.

[enso]

You mean other then all the advantages you accrue simply by being the inheritor of a system built on the oppression of other (now) citizens?

No one is asking you to admit “guilt.” That’s a straw man that always gets trotted out. That said, people are asking for folks to acknowledge when their advantages in life are based on the enforced disadvantage of other groups over generations.

[pixleshifter]

You have a point that is appropriate for a large set of people, but I think one of the nuances is this:

@albill

So if my family was able to do well, buy a home, or run a business 100 years ago because of the benefits of slavery, and, down through the years, my family has continued to build on this or at least do ok, sending people to school, etc

and

@albill

my family has owned houses in areas where black Americans were simply not allowed to own homes and worked in professions where blacks were not allowed to work

A lot of poor white families also;
Weren’t able to do well, own a house (in any neighbourhood), nor run a business 100 years ago, often weren’t able to send children to school, and could only do labouring jobs due to lack of education.
Were they better off being white then? No question, in terms of societal structure. Not much different in economic.
Are their descendents better off being white today? Same answer.
So yes, there’s no argument that there’s systemic racism in society, but I can see no argument that it doesn’t have nuances too, and the topic of reparations has perhaps more nuances than most.
(Apologies if this has already been argued before I read through the full post)
ETA
The cartoon is very cartoonish in its depiction of a particular class of person however. It’s a diminishing few that get to have mortgages and corporate positions.

@HMSGoose and @funkdaddy and @Aloisius nicely phrase some of these nuances.

[bloodybl]

I’m all for apologising for something my ancestors did to someone else’s ancestors if it will achieve something. But I really do struggle to understand what it WILL achieve. If it just makes people feel better about it, then great!

Unless I’ve been grossly misinformed by right-wing propaganda. I’m under the impression that many African slaves were rounded up and sold by other Africans. Why does nobody ever ask them for an apology?

[anon15383236]

@bloodybl

But I really do struggle to understand what it WILL achieve.

Lower levels of systematically induced economic inequality. Sound good? Thinking about that for a minute should also show you why your second question isn’t worth asking.

[Falcor]

Mod note: Play nice or I will eat this topic.

[enso]

Apologizing isn’t something people give a crap about, really. Addressing the reality that the current circumstances of the descendants of slaves (who became a permanent underclass) is rooted in what has been done to them for the last several hundred years is what folks really want.

Do you think black Americans, for example, are just coincidentally on the bottom rungs of society by and large and that our culture and systems haven’t effectively conspired to keep them there over generations (and then used the fact that they are there as an excuse for how they belong there because they aren’t trying hard enough or something)?

Or is there a workable theory that explains why our social situation for blacks is how it is that shows that their historical circumstances as slaves and a legally oppressed class has nothing to do with it?

[enso]

The first step to addressing a problem is acknowledging its existence. That’s where we are at since so many Americans refuse to admit that there is a problem.

Step two is coming up with ways to address the issue. We can’t do that until white Americans quit sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling “This has nothing to do with me.”

[armozel]

@Brainspore

And let’s not forget that for several generations slavery also directly benefited virtually any person who had known the taste of sugar or owned a garment made from cotton. Just as unethical labor practices today benefit people who buy sneakers, clothing, or electronics.

So every person that happens to exist today is legally and morally obligated to do what exactly? I’m not arguing against reparations, but individualizing the blame to the common person is where I find the pro-reparation argument to be repugnant. You can focus on the harsh reality that governments and corporations kill and destroy the lives of human beings and you can even quantify that across generations in terms of economic outcomes. But to lay implicit blame on a random stranger to history for past deeds is nonsense. Governments and corporations owe Jamaica and other people reparations, private individuals do not owe anything to anyone in this context.

[Brainspore]

@armozel

So every person that happens to exist today is legally and morally obligated to do what exactly?

In terms of legal obligations—very little. But that’s largely because the victors write the laws.

In terms of moral obligations—I’d say that those populations whose wealth and comfort is built on wrongs of the past should try to do right by those populations who were wronged.

[enso]

Appropriate for discussion:

State Terror Against People of Color
By Chris Hedges

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/state_terror_against_people_of_color_20150928

[armozel]

@Brainspore

In terms of moral obligations—I’d say that those populations whose wealth and comfort is built on wrongs of the past should try to do right by those populations who were wronged.

Our civilization is built on blood then. We’re soaked to the very bones in evil. But I don’t buy that sort of concept of sin. As the Bible says, “The sins of the father shall not be inherited by the sons.”

I am no more guilty of being a slaver than you are either by relation nor accident of history. This has to be something that must be accepted otherwise we’ll be turning each other blind for past misdeeds. Feuds that can never be finished and debts that can never be repaid. It is better to focus on current injustices. Ones that have real effects on real people.

That’s why I say I support reparations of some kind since it levels the playing field without harming anyone (we’re already paying taxes, I’d rather it go to something productive over bombing or killing people). But applying some mythical moral debt to the equation is something altogether different.

[Brainspore]

@armozel

But I don’t buy that sort of concept of sin. As the Bible says, “The sins of the father shall not be inherited by the sons.”

It’s not about punishment for “sins of the father,” nor is is about anyone accusing you of being a slaver or a thief or a rapist. It’s more like…

A: “Hey there neighbor—you know all that cool stuff in your garage? The thing is, your dad actually stole it from my dad, so I’d sure appreciate it if you could see your way to giving some of it back.”
B: “Fuck you it’s mine now.”

[armozel]

@Brainspore

A: "Hey there neighbor—you know all that cool stuff in your garage? The thing is, your dad actually stole it from my dad, so I’d sure appreciate it if you could see your way to giving some of it back."B: “Fuck you it’s mine now.”

Your man is full of straw. I was talking about moral debts.

[Brainspore]

Not all debts are codified in law.

[armozel]

@Brainspore

Not all debts are codified in law.

Can you formulate a logical proof that demonstrates that debts of moral kind transfer from one person to another by mere relation or accident of history? I don’t see how this would work without having myself and others going to jail for some distant relative’s crime.