I wasn’t talking about bench trials at all. ~94% of convictions are from plea deals, because most accused don’t think they can get a fair trial and don’t have adequate representation. We like to pretend that the criminal justice system is balanced between prosecution and defense with jurors holding them accountable, but in the overwhelming majority of cases its just prosecution (without defense or independent accountability). Accepting that is a key step in improving things
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Say, someone is caught with pot in their car, and they have previous convictions. The question that is going to be posed to you is only “Did the police find pot in their car”. Not “Is it fair”. Not “Is it heinous to put anyone in jail for years based on having a minor amount of pot in their car just because they had previous convictions”.
I have a feeling a lot of people here are being a bit facetious. You don’t get to pick the standards by which someone is found guilty. You don’t get to pick and choose what laws you’ll uphold and which you’ll ignore. As a juror, if the jury instructions are such that “if you believe the defendant did this act, you must find them guilty”, then you either find them guilty, or obstruct justice in no way less than the person in this case.
For the folks that can stomach destroying lives based on generations-old laws drafted by racist legislators that were put in power illegitimately through criminal political regimes, well, that’s your deal. I can’t. My only choice would be to subvert the system from within and put myself in the same place as this juror. That endangers me, my family, everyone who relies on me.
I am gonna go with Beschizza on this one.
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I don’t quite understand why they were shown the patch? And by whom? And what context was “officially” provided? I mean, I can’t see why the prosecution would show it and raise any questions about “their” ICE guys, and if the defence showed it, wouldn’t they normally explain why, maybe have an expert on hand to support their reason for showing it (i.e. that it was a bad thing etc.)
Anyway, just curious, I really don’t know about these things, IANAL (in fact IDIOT would be more accurate)
ETA: The Reuters reporter does say “(I asked the New Jersey U.S. Attorney’s office and defense counsel Justin Loughry for additional information about the ICE officer’s patch and its role at the trial. A spokesperson for prosecutors declined to comment and Loughry didn’t respond.” but that doesn’t answer any of the above, obviously.
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What I meant is that the juror in question, by not asking a question for clarification and instead taking it upon himself to introduce this information to the other jurors, was introducing new evidence that should have been introduced by the defense and cross-examined by the prosecution. There would have been nothing wrong with asking the question, but I doubt that he would have received an answer.
Just for the record, I am not against the juror here. It is the court’s (and especially the judge’s) responsibility to explain in no uncertain terms what jurors may and may not do.
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Government law enforcement, at any level, shouldn’t have any other patches or regalia other than official patches. Department patch, entity patch, etc.
And while I haven’t read all the posts above, I did do my own research on “pipe hitter” the other day. The term comes from that scene in Pulp Fiction where Marsellus Wallace is talking about “getting medieval on your ass” and was adopted by special forces in Iraq/Afghanistan. The insinuation being you would have to hit a pipe to do the crazy shit they do. Since then it has become short hand for hard asses doing violence. Completely inappropriate for a law enforcement officer to wear.
So question - if I was a juror… oh shit - I just remembered, I got a letter about that sent to my old house - I better get and reply to it - where was I… OK, question, if I as a juror I would most definitely notice a detail like a patch. If I wanted to know where it was from, and what it meant, then how would I get that info? Request the judge gets info on what it means?
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I’ve served on a jury, and our group was a good cross-section of our community, and we deliberated very seriously about the case, a murder trial. I would hope that if I were ever accused of a crime, I’d get a jury as dedicated and compassionate as ours was.
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My wife just finished jury duty where they caught a dumb 20 something being a dumb 20 something in a park. It turned out that he was transporting drugs over state lines to sell as it appears to be the way he supports himself. The juries are limited in what they are allowed to decide. In this case, whether there was evidence beyond a reasonable doubt (there was). Generally information on term of incarceration is not allowed nor is a jury permitted to use this information as a determining factor on their verdict.
Now the state will likely spend hundreds of thousands of dollars putting him in a miserable cage and in a few years release him with no improvement in his life skills other than lessons received from his fellow prisoners on how not to get caught next time from those who got caught. There will also be diminished opportunities for conventional employment as this conviction record will follow him around for the rest of his life. The drug war has pretty much destroyed any semblance of justice in America’s justice system.
That rant went a bit far off topic.
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I hope you live in a less corrupt state and locality than I do. I really wouldn’t feel safe after doing something like that.
Right on!
I’ve been called several times but always dismissed before voir dire. If I ever am empaneled, I’ll serve willingly and take my duty to serve justice seriously.
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For years i’ve been mulling over a concept to make trials more fair and impartial, especially taking in mind the bias the system has against POC, immigrants, and less wealthy individuals. I looked up the concept i had been kicking around in my head for years and it’s the establishment of double blind courts
Though in my head, cases where personally identifiable information is necessary i would separate the court proceeding with the judgement itself with another judge who would only have access to anonymized info in order to give an impartial and unbiased sentence. Then again i’m not a lawyer and i’ve been dying to debate and discuss this with a professional.
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I wasn’t aware of the Pipe Hitters until recently. Mike Pompeo is a big fan, he characterizes them as ‘People who just get things done, are dedicated to the mission and never give an inch’. Hmmm… I think we know his real call out is here.
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Well, to nullify the jury, all members of the jury would have to go along with it. In a particularly corrupt location, you’re very likely to get authoritarian arse-lickers in the jury, so this sort of thing is unlikely to happen anyway.
But, it’s still good to be aware of the possibility, I think.
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This video was instructive:
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couldn’t resist, sorry, not sorry
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I was a court reporter for years and if there’s one thing I recommend to y’all more than not doing crimes and not talking to cops it is this: avoid serving on juries. Don’t fall for noble hogwash they tell you, they’re not even paying you minimum wage to believe it.
Outside of reworking our legislative system (which definitely should be attempted), options are slim. Do you have some constructive solutions to offer?
I fluv you man, but if we’re gonna fix things, we need solutions, not more damage.
ETA: In the interest of transparency, I have been both lead juror in Illinois (in a case where my personal experience led prosecutors to pick me, but it backfired on them and saved an immigrant from an issue that was the plaintiff’s fault), AND I have also broken jury selection in a case in Texas.
ETA-ETA: Also, jury selection is a part of civic responsibility, and potential jurors can opt out if they have good reason to do so. It’s the responsibility of being part of a community. Jeez.
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Weird. I have served as a juror on a criminal case and we were able to submit questions in writing through the bailiff at any point during the trial. We did exactly that; the judge read the question in court and asked the defense and prosecution to address it. The information made a difference in the case.
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That sounds so much more civilized than my experiences on a jury in NOLA. Was that in Portland?
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It was my experience in Illinois. And we did ask a question that was answered promptly.
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It was in Oregon.
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