London: the dead-eyed banker psycho dream

[glenblank]

@zathras

What? Heinlein did not intend it to be a dystopian novel against militarism? But it fits so perfectly with my preconceptions, and director Paul Verhoeven seemed to agree.

Hahahaha!

Thank you. Encapsulates that movie perfectly. (-:

[peregrinus_bis]

If were a void banker and I got home and my Mrs was sleeping comfortably ruffled, having left scotch and two glasses on the living room table, I think I’d have my doubts.

[tlwest]

@anon47741163

I think it’s pretty clear this democracy is a sham.

Alright, do you believe that you’re justified in treating it like a sham?

And if so, then how is that not providing moral justification for every individual or group that seeks to impose their will upon the people. All you have is “I’m right”, which is exactly the claim made by every other group.

[zathras]

@anon47741163

The Starship Troopers novel had one fatal flaw, in that the whole system assumed and depended on constant warfare to keep going. But there was something important in the book that sailed right over the film director’s head: Pure democracy suffers from a moral hazard. Bread and circuses are inevitable when peope can vote their wishes as easily as their needs.

Well, the book’s statement is that people who have “served” are in some way morally superior and less susceptible to this “moral hazard of democracy”. If you accept, deep down, that military service is something inherently honorable, that instills values of service and sacrifice, then Starship Troopers makes sense as a (slightly) utopian novel that, as you pointed out, unfortunately depends on constant warfare, which the Evil Aliens are happy to provide. Optimal human society in an evil universe.

Now, I can only make guesses about Verhoevens opinions, but I can trace my own directly to continental European culture. Two world wars have led to a very different view of what “military sevice” is. It’s not honorable or glorious. It’s pointless. Military training doesn’t instill values like service, courage, or honor. It breaks your will, keeps you from questioning things and teaches you how to Obey. The ethics of your average Wehrmacht soldier were no different from those of any other solder.

I don’t think anyone overlooked the “moral hazard” aspect of the book, but if you accept this view of the military, it logically follows that veterans from a volunteer army are just about the last people you want to put in control of your country if you don’t trust the moral strength of the average citizen. They will be trained to accept commands from “above”, they will be habituated to excessive and cruel punishments for crimes, and they are trained to accept war as the way things are done. They might even have an interest to see their “way of life” continue in the next generation. A country (or planet) ruled by veterans of a volunteer army will likely engage in constant warfare. It all fits. If we don’t reign in excessive worship of veterans, if we give a volunteer army too much power, this is where things might head. Clearly a dystopian novel.

---

So…
left-leaning central European worldview → Starship Troopers is a dystopia.
average American worldview (I guess) → Starship Troopers is an utopian or at least basically positive novel that points out possible solutions to current problems.

left-leaning worldview → The Redrow ad is a dystopia.
family-oriented worldview → The Redrow ad is a dystopia.
“Christian” worldview → The Redrow ad is a dystopia.
dead-eyed banker worldview → The Redrow ad shows a dream come true.

It all depends on where you’re coming from.

[anon68952647]

They hedge more than their language.

[MarjaE]

@tlwest

Alright, do you believe that you’re justified in treating it like a sham?

And if so, then how is that not providing moral justification for every individual or group that seeks to impose their will upon the people. All you have is “I’m right”, which is exactly the claim made by every other group.

Huh? Presumably because the latter just does. not. follow. from the former, in any way. shape. or form. Pretending we have a democracy is just burying your head in the sand, it’s like pretending we don’t have a carbon pollution problem.

[MarjaE]

Heinlein wasn’t always clear or consistent about what he wanted to say there.

Iirc, at one point, he was arguing that political power comes down to armed force, so it ultimately comes down to the armed forces; at another point regarding Starship Troopers, he was arguing that whatever-it-was service wouldn’t normally be military missions, anyway, and the point was that people who had served the public could vote; in For Us, the Living, he was arguing that people who had voted for war, as opposed to people who voted against war, had better be willing to fight in it, if they were willing to send anyone else to fight in it. And having fought in the last one would not give an exemption.

I suppose a generous interpretation is that he just set the story in a world with an incoherent ideology.

[andy_hilmer]

Congatulations on getting to “weasel”. That ten percent is the victory of democracy over tyranny.