That’s clearly a ridiculous misrepresentation of my response to you. Care to try again?
I believe I am pretty open-minded. If you want to present some evidence that people are actively seeking to bring immigrants to the US from other countries, that’s great! But you present it as if that’s the intention of all open borders activists, which simply isn’t a tenable claim.
As for everything else, you seem to have given up responding to the substantial elements of my argument and are now focusing on tangential issues.
I will at least restate my admittedly sarcastic comment. It was not necessary for me to take that tone. So here goes:
It has been my personal experience, in the three times I have visited Somalia, even arriving on a civilian ship, carrying only direct food aid for the Somali people, we still get shot at regularly. Even transiting Somali waters always carries a risk if being killed or kidnapped. When we are unloading the aid, we are not permitted to leave the dock area, because of the risk that we would be killed or kidnapped. before approaching the Somali coast, we have to wrap the ships in spikes and razor wire, like we are in some sort of mad max film. The whole time we are there, there is the occasional “ping” of rounds hitting the ship. I was sitting for a meal in the mess hall once, when the window nearest me was blown out. Not a little hole, the entire panel of 40mm thick glass exploded into the room, after it was hit with a large caliber round. Most of the places we go, even those in conflict, treat us with some amount of consideration. ( that is not a good word for it, but I cannot think of the right English word) Not gratitude, which is not required, but a general consensus that neither side of whatever conflict is happening will try to kill us all while we are unloading the aid.
Does this mean that I hate Somalis? Absolutely not. Many of those I have met seem to be nice people. I would not be surprised at all if I am asked to return there. I will go, and do my best to help.
Sorry! Wrong CIS… this is the Center for Immigration studies, which is also a conservative think tank (thought not strictly speaking libertarian)! My bad! It is an organization whose goal is ending or curtailing immigration into the US, so not exactly an unbiased organization, yeah? According to the SPLC, it also has ties to white supremacists and eugenics groups… so, again, I’m not going to put much faith in that study.
I’d suggest that much immigration we’re seeing is a direct result of what’s happening in places where the war on terror is being conducted - so refugees, not immigrants.
I have found through personal experience that cultures where violence is normalized are not going to be helped through any normal sort of intervention. I have seen it tried in several places, and it only makes things worse. I went back and read the OXFFAM report on Hondouras, and it looks to me like they have some serious cultural issues, especially with corruption, gangs and Machista culture. I am not sure that we can do very much about basic cultural attributes where violence is normalized and trivialized.
And I guess that goes to a basic philosophical difference between my views and what I know of yours. I cannot speak with any real authority on Honduras, but what I do know of it seems to confirm that it is one of those places in the world where the problems they experience are closely related to their national culture. And culture is portable. People bring it with them. I don’t really like the expression, but I have heard people talk about the fallacy of “magic dirt”. People who come from cultures where violence is normalized do not just instantly lose that component of their culture when they cross a border. But any person can change.
I also have to admit that my views on immigration are shaped by the fact that I have spent time in some places that were truly horrible. Rarely was the land itself the problem. Of course I have also met very friendly and generous people in even the worst of those places. I also want to make it clear that I don’t intend to deliberately put rankings on cultures and nations about which is better or superior. I understand that is a subjective thing. I say “worst” specifically to refer to places where violence, especially against women and children, killing, and theft are acceptable behavior.
Did the culture in Honduras just magically change in 2007? Can a culture that has only existed for 9 years be as entrenched as you seem to think?
Take a look at Mexico (Yay, we’re back on topic!):
The murder rate was horriffic as recently as 2011, but it’s been on its way down as rule of law has started to supplant the violent gangs who were running the northern part of the country until recently. I bet just a few short years ago you would have blamed Mexico’s horrific murder rate on their “culture of normalized violence.”
The violence in Honduras is also a result of criminal gangs. These criminal gangs exist in the first place because of:
US drug policy
US immigration policy
In short, undocumented immigrants from Honduras can’t get jobs in US, so they join gangs. They get caught doing something illegal and are deported to Honduras. Without any other skills, their main option when they get there is to start a local chapter of their gang. A few years later there is widespread violent crime.
This illegal immigration caused by widespread violence – some might call it a refugee crisis – was caused by US drug policy and immigration policy in the first place, not by some magical Honduran culture that appeared out of nowhere less than 10 years ago. I mean, does the “18th Street Gang” sound like a native Honduran enterprise, or perhaps a US cultural export?
And if you want to talk about cultures where violence is normalized, you better be prepared to talk about the US.
And it has nothing to do with “magic dirt”. Just because a murder rate is high doesn’t mean everyone in the country is ready to murder everyone else – the people fleeing the violence are not necessarily any more violent than a typical American (hopefully less violent). This is demonstrated by the fact that – as you’ve conveniently ignored so far – immigrant crime rates are typically lower than those for natural born US citizens.
