MMA fighter's quick defeat of traditional martial artist "leaves China reeling"

[Medievalist]

@zen_machine

Enjoy this! Makes me laugh every time!

Thanks, that was interesting! Red jacket guy often hits all the way from head to toe. It looks like he’s got shoulder - chest - hip - knee - foot cascades going that he doesn’t have to think about consciously. He’d be an excellent swordsman with little training.

@wrybread

But of course it depends on your definition of combat.

This is the point I’ve been trying to make.

Two guys punching each other in a bar parking lot is not real combat by my definition. Neither one is going for the easy kill and maim shots, because it’s a social dominance ritual, a tournament - which is a very human, very meaningful event. Killing the opponent would completely defeat the purpose, it’d be an error.

From my perspective, going over a convenience store counter barehanded, grabbing a man with a loaded pistol and pounding his head against the concrete until brains come out is real combat. (The guy who did that knows nothing about BJJ or MMA, by the way, a good part of his ability comes from having no style at all, but mostly it comes from having no psychological limitations.)

If nobody gets killed or goes to jail, it almost certainly wasn’t real fighting. It was a tournament.

So I think BJJ is a great art, and would be happy to practice it. But just I would not characterize Chintokan Shorin-ryu as a circular style (I’d call it a linear style) I would not characterize the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu I have seen as a combat style, I’d call it a tournament style, and a very good one. I mean no disrespect for the art itself when I disagree with the idea that it’s a combat style.

@wrybread

I’ve unfortunately had to use it to defend myself, and found it exactly like class: double leg, take his back, apply the choke. As usual he was reaching for my eyes (everyone does in a panic) but good luck with that. I was able to calm him down and deescalate. When I let him go he attacked again and it repeated again exactly the same way. I was just trying to end the situation and was able to do so without hurting him.

This illustrates why a tournament style can be a far better thing to learn than a combat style. Real combat is dehumanizing, a winning tournament style can be used to affirm life, not just to end it.

@wysinwyg

No one’s arguing that BJJ training turns you into a superhero.

I’m sorry to have to tell you that I have heard that exact argument quite frequently. I am very much not kidding. But I’ve heard it about lots of other styles and arts, too, it seems to be a phase some people (usually young men) go through, where it’s important to them that their art is the bestest art…

[Medievalist]

@fuzzyfungus

I hope it was none the worse for the experience in the long term.

Well,the optic nerve is elastic. Your eye sort of creeps back in if it’s not severed. You won’t be able to use it for a little while, and it’ll drip yellowgreen slime for a week, and now I have incipient glaucoma partly from that incident (and from being stabbed in the eye with a pencil, also not fun).

One of the most horrible aspects of that experience was that later I had to have a doctor pull the eye out again, only slowly* and look behind it because I lost a contact lens, and he was afraid it was folded up back there.

@stinkinbadgers

I know nothing about fighting, but my daydreams of what would I do in a life threatening situation is that, knowing that I know nothing about fighting, is to go straight for the eyeballs. Horrible, I know, I almost feel guilty about it but we’re talking life and death, not a playground (or airline) fight. But does it at least raise my odds from 0% to a slightly higher chance, or am I delusional?

You’re not delusional, and knowing nothing is usually better than knowing just a little bit (aka knowing enough to get yourself hurt). Eyes are a good target, and so are knees. But really, always always always talk your way out first, if that fails run, if that fails shoot them in the center of mass until they stop moving. Never let the opponent put a hand on you. Hand-to-hand is the last of last resorts in real combat. And keep in mind that screaming is always either a very good or a very bad idea!

Gotta go, thanks for the conversation all, tty Monday!

* slower was not better.

[InfrequentCommentor]

@Medievalist

a good part of his ability comes from having no style at all

There’s a word for this: to aboyne. It means to defeat an expert by doing the erratic things that beginners do.

[katherinelives]

@Medievalist

slower was not better

THIS IS THE MOST TERRIFYING THING I HAVE EVER READ.

[SamSam]

@roomwithaview

I know of at least one teacher who refuses to give a black-belt to anyone with less than four years practice, and it’s by no means automatic, you still have to pass the tests with flying colors.

This is one of the things that BJJ students find absolutely bizarre about traditional martial arts – particularly as taught in the states: the very notion that you could get a black belt in four years (and that it’s considered to be a long time, by your story!) is laughable. That’s where people start tossing around the term “McDojo” or “belt factory.”

I’ve been training BJJ for nearly five years, and am an early blue belt – blue being one step above white. And I know plenty of people who are still white belts at five years. It typically takes someone who trains 4+ times a week about 10-12 years to get to black belt.

To each their own, of course, and the meaning of the belt is only meaningful in its own system. But it’s just makes BJJ folks roll their eyes when someone says "You’re still a white belt? Oh. Huh. Well, my 12 year old just got her black belt in Taekwondo.

[waterloonie]

@SamSam

I’ve been training BJJ for nearly five years, and am an early blue belt

I’ve heard of a lot of variation between belt colours among BJJ schools. The one local to me only uses two in between white and black: Blue and purple. That’s it.

But it’s not like there’s any sort of standardization of what a black belt means among almost any two schools… Hell, even my sifu doesn’t make us suffer nearly as much as his did to him for every rank. If memory serves, it took him two years to get to gold sash (first one up from white in our school). I’m not what anyone would call a martial arts prodigy, but I got my gold in six months.

@roomwithaview

My friend walked around him a couple of times quickly and then caught the guy as he started to fall down

A story I tell at every opportunity I get (hey, thanks for giving me an opportunity!) is of a guy I went to university with (in Canada), who moved to Japan and earned his 1st dan in Shito-Ryu at a dojo that took such things quite seriously. One night he was out with his Japanese friends, and a fellow gaijin tried to pick a fight with him for reasons that aren’t relevant to the story. In response to which our intrepid hero deployed his ultimate fighting technique: Forget you speak English.

It worked wonderfully. By the end of the encounter, the gaijin was screaming, red-faced, “you are WHITE! You speak English!” before storming off in frustration.

[roomwithaview]

@SamSam

It typically takes someone who trains 4+ times a week about 10-12 years to get to black belt.

That’s how it should be!

(I wasn’t very clear about the time restriction, he only ever granted one black belt at the 4-year mark and the guy who got it was freakin’ amazing!)

[wrybread]

@Medievalist

Two guys punching each other in a bar parking lot is not real combat by my definition. Neither one is going for the easy kill and maim shots, because it’s a social dominance ritual, a tournament - which is a very human, very meaningful event.

That hasn’t been my experience at all, they’re going for every bit of damage they can. When I was attacked for example the guy was thoroughly going for my eyes, especially once it became clear that he didn’t have a chance. Groin too, and biting, anything he could think of. The only difference between the over the top battle scenes you’re describing and what I’m describing is in the finish: hopefully in a fight the winner backs off once it’s clear that he wins (the “dominance” part you’re talking about), but unfortunately that’s far from a given. And up until that point the combat is exactly the same thing. And hopefully it’s clear to you that if someone releases a choke they’re sparing the person’s life. Or if they release an armbar they’re deciding not to break their arm. Or pop their shoulder or knee or ankle, etc. Or if someone stops punching someone who’s knocked out they’re sparing their life. But alas none of those things are a given, and don’t change the essence of the fight until that point. And I’ve unfortunately heard lots of stories of people going too far with fights, some by people I’ve trained with. I’ll never forget the words of a visiting brown belt from Brazil who said “I like to give people something to remember me by for 7 years”, meaning finish the kimura. Scary stuff. Lesson learned: don’t get into fights!

But hey, I don’t go to bars, so maybe the “formal combat” mating ritual stuff you’re describing is a thing in that environment, dunno.

@Medievalist

I would not characterize the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu I have seen as a combat style, I’d call it a tournament style, and a very good one. I mean no disrespect for the art itself when I disagree with the idea that it’s a combat style.

When you call a fighting art a mere “tournament style” you are of course disrespecting it. But no biggie I’ve heard worse.

@wysinwyg

No one’s arguing that BJJ training turns you into a superhero.

Actually, I very much consider BJJ a super power, but then again I also consider speed typing and the ability to walk barefoot for long periods outdoors super powers so don’t take me too seriously. I’m sure everyone here has heard the quote that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, and I’d submit that BJJ is one such advanced technology. Roll with a black belt sometime and you’ll be tossed around like a baby tossed by his father. And that’s even if you’ve been training for 5 years. If you’ve never trained at all roll with a purple or brown belt to experience the same sensation. Speaking of which, holy crap @InfrequentCommentor, extra super congrats on that brown belt!

[InfrequentCommentor]

@wrybread

Speaking of which, holy crap @InfrequentCommentor, extra super congrats on that brown belt!

Thanks. I worked my ass off for it. Three promotions down. One to go.

[hecep]

I wager 10,000 qwat-looz on the newcomer.

[wrybread]

Three promotions down. One to go.

Epic. I hope to see a splash of purple heading my way one of these days.

[Deborah_Caruso]

@wysinwyg

. No one’s arguing that BJJ training turns you into a superhero.

You’re bursting my bubble here. I haven’t trained or taught in 30 years, but I still win every street fight in my imagination. I’ve since moved to something similar but different - where you train with a partner that is a co-conspirator instead of an opponent. Here are two masters of Contact Improv https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR2QCf5cL6Q&t=424s

[anon15383236]

Very cool, thank you!

[Medievalist]

@wrybread

When you call a fighting art a mere “tournament style” you are of course disrespecting it. But no biggie I’ve heard worse.

Good thing I didn’t call it “mere” then.

The opposite of a tournament style would be a melee style, but it’s more of a spectrum than a dichotomy.