"Monopoly for Millennials" recommends playing in your parents' basement

But they were discussed as a distinct age group between adults and children even as the full, modern concept of adolescents and young adulthood hadn’t fully formed.

Infact we’ve shifted significantly in our conception of “young people” from the 50’s teen boom to one of young adulthood. With the lowering of voting ages and what have.

What I’m complaining about is that we tend to exaggerate a single step in what’s very much a clean gradient. And assume it to be an end point. In part because we’re back identifying thing to underline cohort. We’ve decided cohorts are important, and this one in particular. So we search for what makes it important. And in terms of what we look for in identifying other cohorts. We only really look for the sort of things that that we’ve identified in that original cohort. And for the main ones we’ve identified them almost exclusively in relation to the Boomer cohort, then searched for equivalents of the big supposed Boomer benchmarks.

Even if you wanted to look narrowly at the rise of modern youth culture, and the full middle class. You’d be looking more at the end of child labor, the rise and success of the labor movement and socialism, and the development of the modern middle class in the interwar period. So if that’s what’s diagnostic for a cohort. Your cohort would be probably be bracketed from post WWI to post WWII.

Those interwar youth cultures were already pushing down into lower classes, my own great grandmother was the child of two immigrant garment mill workers. And grew up in a tenement. And she flappered it up like a boss. As wealth pushed down the class ladder, so did mass culture youth movements. And everything involved. The rise of radio and recorded music, movies as mass culture. And the moral panic that attended (largely prefiguring the comic panic almost entirely, including concerns about juvenile deliquency).

By narrowly focusing on the importance of that post war step, we peg the cause to the post war ecconomic boom. And not the middle class friendly policies and social changes that lead directly into it. There’s a narrowing of of what we’re looking at. We lock it onto the period of the cohort, instead of the actual context of the events in question. And there’s a base inconsistency to the base idea of what a cohort even is.

And I remember all of those as a millennial. Along with other cultural bellweathers like the pre internet world, local affiliate stations and their afternoon movies and syndicated classic TV, the fall of the Berlin Wall. They happenedat a younger, potentially more formative age. But I experienced them. So which set of events is determative for Gen X? This goes back to the teenage thing. As we tend to assume significant events driven by or experienced by people in there teenaged years. But a big chunk of any of the cohorts we’ve identified either didn’t experience it direct at all or experienced it to early or too late.

So how are we really determining these thing? GenX exists largely because the baby boom had ended as a statistical event. Millennials largely exist because of a calender change that ultimately wasn’t all that significant culturally or historically, and a large group of the corhort wasn’t around or cognizant enough of the world to experience it directly. It isn’t even as simple as children of previous cohort. Because both GenXers and a big chunk of Millennials are children of Boomers. While millennials are children of boomers GenXers and other Millennials. We largely spin a new one off whenever we need a new way to talk about “kids these days”. There are like two or 3 different cohort groups supposedly following Millennials, under a dozen different names. Even as we still roll most of them into millennials. And distinctly remember the same happen when I was a kid. We were rolled into GenX, then we were pegged with a Pepsi slogan, there were a few “generations” identified. Then some one hit on tying it all to the millennium. And there we go.

I’m arguing that those changes both predated the post war period and continued after. That it’s a longer based and broader trend than just the limited chunk we tend to talk about. And we limit the chunk we talk about in large part because we’re trying to shore up a cultural and historical catagorey that doesn’t really work.

Yeah. And what I’m trying to point to is that it’s all of us, the cohort concept doesn’t map cleanly to reality. Historians and other academics do just fine figuring it all without resort to the cohort concept, and often do much better. It’s predominantly a concept of popular discussion, marketing, media, and increasingly politics. And it helps push some very skewed ideas about the base concepts it attempts to encapsulate among the general public.

The concepts were pretty connected at the time. As hip-hop was rising around NYC. First punks and then the punk associated art music scene were largely the first people to notice hip-hop outside its own scene. And vice versa when punk rose up about a decade earlier. The same people who were figuring out hip hop were the first people outside of punk to start showing up to those shows. The confluence in those is all pretty interesting.

But it’s worth noting that punk’s rise was largely an event of the late boomers. And it had already “died” for the first time by the time the earliest GenXers.

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That’s another thing that Millenials are rejecting if they can. They’d prefer to live in smaller homes in the cities where there are jobs and decent public transit and walkable neighbourhoods rather that buying a McMansion in a subdivision or rural area where every errand requires getting in the damned car.

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Many of them ended up working or married as a teenager. it was not connected to their age, but rather to their larger roll in society. Rites of passage in many cultures often happened around the time of puberty, when people were initiated into adulthood. That was less sure in highly stratified societies, where in elite circles the younger siblings of the first son had far less “work” to do, so ended up either becoming priests or layabouts (generally speaking of course). The people who had leisure time to pursue youthful antics were pretty much only the elite, at least in a way that informed their identity. A Teenager is a very specific category of consumption.

You’re assuming that I’ saying that there was a light switch with no shifts prior to this. Of course that’s not true and I never implied it. That doesn’t mean we can’t look at specific points and see them as a watershed moment. I think the shifts in understanding youth in the postwar period are very much that. It was not entirely novel, in the sense that no one consumed pop culture prior to this, or that hung their identity so much on their connection to mass culture, I’m saying that it has had an impact on HOW we think about the teenage years.

I agree it’s a problem, but that original cohort did dominate and continue to dominate much of our understanding of the relationship between mass culture and youth. If that’s happened, it’s literally because people bought into the concepts (which, no, were not fully developed by the boomers themselves, as Thomas Frank has noted in his work).

Yes. I know. All of that is entirely related to the rise of generational theory. Like I’ve said already.

And that’s ANOTHER reason why the watershed moment matters, because of the spread of mass consumption to an even larger number of people, including young people who for the first time, had more buying power than EVER before and far less obligations. You’re grandmother may have been a flapper, but if she grew up in a city, then that gave her more opportunities to engage with that culture. The interwar generation was also struggle with PTSD, a general sense of ennui, and then the depression. Films and radio were the primary means of engaging with mass culture, and far more people had access to it than before, but again, this YOUTH culture was not quite the same animal as teenaged culture of the postwar period, both in breadth and demographic. I’d suspect that the vast majority of people who defined themselves as flappers were probably older and richer.

No, that doesn’t follow at all. The New Deal certainly made the postwar boom, but so did the destruction of Europe, which allowed for significant growth in the American economy with little competition for a while after. It allowed for the American soft empire to expand, and for the state to become an active participant in the spread of American mass culture in new ways (that benefited the culture industries). There are many ways we can see the end of the war and the postwar expansion as a watershed, but the rise of a broadbased youth culture that helped to define that very slippery thing like a cohort IS one of those ways.

So maybe you’re a Gen Xer then? I mean, were you born in the 70s, then if so, you’re a Gen Xer.

When events happen and how they shape people’s live ARE significant, though. We live within institutions of various kinds and those shape us.

I’m saying that they came to a head in that period.

I know. I never said other wise. That doesn’t mean the material changes that happened after teh way that shape how we see the post war period should be shrugged aside just because you think they’re stupid.

Which I’ve never actually said. I’m saying that material changes that DID happen in the postwar period are materailly important in part because they shaped our PERCEPTIONS of what it means to be young and a consumer.

Yes. I’m aware.

I literally wrote my dissertation on punk, so yes, I DO know this history.

The hardcore scene (second wave) that evolved MOSTLY during the 80s were very late boomers and the real network of independent punk labels that came to define a punk identity were largerly early Gen Xers.

Oh that nonsense. The scene changed, became far more antagonistic to outsiders to the scene. Punks became more a identifiable uniform with far more defined characteristics. But that’s once again the second wave of hardcore. The first wave was made up of late boomers, who were far more experimental in their interest in music and fashion, but were turned off by the hippies or just too late to be part of the earlier youth cultures. Then you get postpunk, which tended to be bands that no longer fit in the more narrow definition of punk as defined by hardcore. Also, it was globalized by that point as well, with an interconnected archipelago of punk…

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Even at seven or so I remember the conflicts in Eastern Europe and the fall of the Berlin wall vividly. It was a strange mix of hopeful and tragic, and I’d definitely say it registered. But… probably not as much as it would if I’d truly been aware of the things that were going on before, which I might have been if I were older. Also my ability to understand what was going on afterwards was limited because I was still pretty young. Same thing for the Challenger disaster, I remember it but I was also watching Sesame Street and worrying about my baby teeth falling out so it was a different kind of experience, say, than 9/11 where I was very much aware of life both before and after. Similarly I was aware of economic issues during Regan or Bush’s presidencies, and I knew something of them because they affected my family. But that was definitely a different experience than 2008 because 2008 affected my income directly rather than affecting me passively through my parents.I think generations are toxic when they are overly marketed towards people or when external forces try too hard to define a generation but I also think that the experience of one’s surroundings is different at different ages and so whatever the conditions of the time they’re going to have a different impact based around age. Not just age, of course, but age will be a factor.

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So you’re basically an early millennial, it sounds like (apologies, cause you probably said that upthread). There is overlap of course and as you note, our own political journeys and our understand of events we lived through change over time. Space matters, too. Where you experience events shapes our understanding of them.

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Ha! Perfect. :smiley:
Whoever it was that raised that ghastly spectre ‘60s Day’ themed school events… a pox on ye for bringing all that crap back to mind… gaaaaahhhh!

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And bless your heart for ‘killing’ things like paper napkins (!) and Hooters and shitty restaurant chains and godhelpme fabric ‘softener’. As I, GenX, am fond of telling my kid, most definitely a millennial, go forth and kill all the stupid industries. We tried, but there just weren’t enough of us.

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I’m just saying we do that better without recourse to the “cohort” idea, or at least as it’s currently outlined. It works as short hand but there are much bigger problems with buying into the concept and using it as a a frame work to analyze these things. The concept is too muddy and we too often work our way backwards from it. Instead of building out from the events themselves.

Nope. Which ever stupid ill defined version of millennial you buy into. I am resolutely in the first run of them. By some versions of it the very first year or two. I think challenger went down when I was 2, its probably one of the first big media events I remember. Many of the key things pegged as GenX experience happened or just persisted in my late childhood and early teen years. Or even just keep going until I was well into college. And many purported millennial trends particularly in terms of media and mass culture happened when I was already “too old”.

Basically I’m saying the gradations here are a lot finer and the divisions between them aren’t nearly as firm. My parents like wise fall into gaps like this. My mom based on age could easily fall into the oldest run of GenX. But almost nothing about her life experience, interests, or the culture she was tied to resembles what we talk about with GenX at all. Except having divorced parents. My father based on age is undeniably a boomer, but he was pretty young during most of the key events we define the baby boom aroubf. He was like 13 when Woodstock happened, and I think 19 when the Vietnam war ended. A lot of the things he experience, a lot of his interests, even what he does for a living cut closer to early GenX. And his own younger brother, unless you use the stictest date range for GenX is resolutely a GenXer in most regards and was even smeared as such in his 20’s (and he meanwhile loves to shit on millennials and “hipsters”).

All of my grandparents are in all regards cleanly “greatest generation”. But that means something else entirely for my one grandfather. Who was sitting in a neutral, 3rd world nation for the bulk of the key events we ascribe to that group. Where the depression and war rationing lingered well after WWII had ended. And the definitional thing about his early life and teens is probably the impacts of decolonization.

I’m not saying their aren’t are significant cultural invents or trends. Also not saying the ones pinned to cohorts aren’t important. Just that they do not cleanly relate to each other, don’t cleanly separate from previous events, aren’t experienced by a single “cohort” even in the key age period the cohort is supposed to map.

The idea of a cohort as commonly used doesn’t derive from or mean much in regards to these trends.

By attempting to make it fit, we exaggerate the importance of some of these and misinterpret them. And the whole thing is too often driven by trying to fit all of history into a frame work that only works at all when discussing the mid century or post war period.

It also tends to obscure some stuff. Like to go back where we started. Yeah the early baby boomers were the generation of civil rights. But they were also the generation of opposing civil rights. One side of that won out, but all the bad shit defines that generation as much as the good shit. And in terms of boomers as a whole. So does the back lash against civil rights advances that followed.

I’m not informing you I’m high fiving you. We both know things!

By my count Punk has died every 3 weeks since 1972.

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Anything that exacerbates the generation gap is a bad thing.

Well I grew up in an urban residential area in a small (2 bedroom) house with a small yard. It was probably a commute community back in the 30s but all the houses. Where I live now was farmland converted to suburb in the early post war years now it is urban residential with big yards which as far as I can tell nobody really uses anymore. But it is highly walkable there is a grocery store I can walk to (but don’t do major shopping there) the current light rail expansion will terminate just over 1.5 miles away. Have a library, community center, etc all nearby.

If at all possible the next house will have minimal or no yard.

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Still holding out hope for an English version of Bolo’Bolo: Eine Welt Ohne Geld. Maybe by the end of the century…

I think the wider story that we’re touching on here is something that the whole idea of generational conflict is only a part of.

These ill-defined generational groups are just another example of a politics that has turned everything into a contest of atomised and antagonistic interest groups, that people are supposed to have an intense identification with.

But that very division and partisanship is at once partisan and incredibly narrowly defined. The split between old and young people might contest the balance of power between these two groups, but doesn’t challenge the status quo in any real way. And by turning everything into a series of conflicts of sectional interests, we’re encouraged to fight for more for “our” groups, to mock and demonie the out-group.

And the split between better-off boomers and broke millennials is another example of distraction politics. Yes, the average boomer is better off than the average millennial, but the driver of inequality in the west hasn’t been age- it’s been because all the benefits of growth since 1979 have gone to the 1%. The argument about older middle and working class being richer than their younger counterparts is just smoke and mirrors, when all the wealth has been pumped up to a tiny elite at the top.

Or perhaps I’m just complaining because I was born right in the crossover year that means nobody can decide whether I’m an old Millennial, or a tail-end Xer.I don’t fit any of their little boxes .

But I’ll let someone who has been studying the millennial generation for the last 12 years have the last word

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Depends on where you live. I had to move that far out to afford rent on a one-bedroom. McMansion? Don’t make me laugh.

And, yes, I do need a car, if I don’t want my 40 minute one-way commute to turn into 2 hours. The systems were not designed by the people who use them.

I suppose I could choose to live closer… But I am not suited personality-wise to have that many roommates.

I applaud Millennials for recognising how bullshit much of this is.

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There is a lot of that here in the Seattle area. We only got the house as we had a windfall and at the time mortgage was not that much more than renting a big enough place. Now you can’t get a 1 bedroom anywhere reasonably close to work or in a nice walkable area for less than my mortgage payment.

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Someone needs to write a cultural history about how we percieve adolescence and call it, The Rise of the Teenager.

Also a good band name.

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Then tell you what… start a one man crusade about what a stupid idea it is, how we never should have included it in our understand of the world in the first place, and get all talk of generational cohorts ended, and all evidence of it stricken from the historical record. Meanwhile, as a historian, I’m actually going to study these ideas and how they shaped society…

Okay. Well, clearly we’re done, since you think I’m not nearly as clever as you, since I’m buying into a stupid idea.

Have a great night.

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You want to go tell Jon Savage he got the wrong name for his book? :wink: There is a documentary, too. Does a good job (or at least a much better job then me apparently) at laying out the case of the teenager as a unique historical phenomenon and tying that to consumer culture aimed at young people. And you know, it’s a man, so maybe some people around here will listen to him! :wink:

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Not what I meant and I’m sorry it came off that way

But you can’t tell me you can look at “Millennial” and say there’s any real clarity there. That’s a big reason why the people it’s applied to are so unhappy about it.

Actually I think I can to some degree just because one of the biggest factors in my youth was the internet and eventually social media. I don’t think many Gen X folks can say that and growing up on it is a very very different thing than even getting way into it at 20. My biggest social influences would have had no way to reach me while I was young if I’d been born in 1970. Even if I’d been born in 1975 I likely would have had a different and much slower exposure. I don’t think it has ever been or will ever be the same world since this vector of interaction became available en masse. Also it’s changed so much and so rapidly that I also don’t think that younger people will ever really quite have the same kind of experience with it. To me the most defining aspect of being a Millennial is that experience… well that and the explosion of video games development… oh and routine 60k educations from shit colleges often by way of pretty shady loan deals.

Adding: also when I was young I was classed as Gen X and I never really considered myself a part of anything different. But I also always had the feeling that I’d just missed something important, like whatever major shaping factors I was supposed to be responding to felt distant ultimately to my immediate experience and whatever opportunities there were seemed like they’d been well established and deeply mined by others already. I was resistant to the idea of being a millennial at first because it seemed like a catch all (and also it’s just uncomfortable to get retconned into a generation) but as time has gone on I see how much easier it became to relate once the people a few years younger than me were basically also adults. I was married to a GenXer for about ten years during which time I learned a lot about punk rock, death rock, and counterculture in general. I couldn’t get in a pissing contest but I know all the lyrics to Saturday Night at the Bookstore… for better or worse. But hey, being able to say “I’m in love with a glory hole” makes for a nice breakup line. Again though this was largely me learning about something that had already happened.

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I was born in '67, and the bit about the “important stuff” rings true.

In junior high, we had a computer lab full of Tandys and one Apple II. Most of us kind of had the view that computers would be useful products, but a only a very narrow set of people really had a handle on the potential until internet and email came around. Then, the 90s dot.com boom, when everybody could see it, and many people ruined themselves trying to be a part of it (sort of like the gold rush era).

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