No girl wins: three ways women unlearn their love of video games

Maybe there is actually a major problem that is making AAA games less imaginative and diverse, even if there are other options? I’m also not convinced that the complication is the fault of the person raising the issue of their lack of representation and the negative stereotypes of them in mainstream media.

Other than that, I agree that having read the linked articles, grouping her with the spectre of Gamergate (it’s all about hating women, dammit!) while whitewashing any nuance out of what she actually says is pretty ridiculous.

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I know a few men that were historically fans of her work that have stopped being fans because she has recently turned to specifically focus on violence in videogames as something which is essentially wrong and in need of stamping out.

Me, I love the ultraviolence. But I’d hardly ask that every game be violent because that’s stupid.

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I grew up loving games. I didn’t have a console but would spend hours playing Super Mario or Sonic the Hedgehog at friends’ houses. But then my male friends started playing Street Fighter instead and it was way less interesting and anyway I wasn’t “allowed” to join anymore. If it hadn’t been for my cousin giving me his ancient PC and his set of Riven CDs I might never have played a game again. But that hooked me on adventure games with a good story and no dying and lots of stuff to explore.

But it was the late 90s and adventure games were going out of fashion, and apart from the time I saved up money to buy The Longest Journey (which just barely ran on my cousin’s now at least six year old PC) I just didn’t play games except for re-runs of Myst and Riven. Since then I’ve played games regularly but if it’s too hard and it doesn’t grab me I won’t finish them. I’ve gotten through the Myst games, Half-Life 2 (despite the shooting), Beyond Good and Evil, The Longest Journey/Dreamfall games, Portal/Portal 2, Child of Light, Amanita Design’s games and few others.

I love games, and I wish there was more out there for me. I’m pretty sure there are lots of people who like games like this, but apparently we’re not interesting enough. I really want this to change. Games are incredibly powerful as storytelling platforms, and it’s just so sad that all the stories for some reason have to be the same and told to the same people.

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Oh, FFS. Have you watched her videos? Because nowhere. Absolutely fucking nowhere does she say that “violence in videogames in video games is something which is essentially wrong and in need of stamping out.”

Fucking nowhere. And if you can find where she has said that in her Tropes vs Women in Video Games series, I will eat a fucking fedora.

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The researcher presents the results of the day-old infant study in the documentary - I will try to find a source for the actual study.

No, this is her new stuff. I don’t follow her at all. But apparently in the last few months there’s been a change to focus on violence as something that needs to be removed from games.

The guys I’m referring to are Canadian and were definitely fans before the new focus on violence in games, and being Canadian they’re extremely even tempered and always apologizing for everything. I was surprised myself.

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[citation fucking needed]

I guess stuff like this? I dunno.

As I said, I really don’t follow her at all.

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Doesn’t quite qualify as videogame violence being “essentially wrong and in need of stamping out,” since we’re trading in hyperbole :slight_smile:

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Complaining about Doom as “this level of extreme violence shouldn’t be considered normal” is… pretty extreme. It’s Doom. Extreme violence is its raison d’être.

It turned Canadians. That’s not an easy thing to do.

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Her very next tweet is about Dishonored 2. The tweet after that is about Fallout 4.

So, yeah, she wants to ban violent video games.

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Well, that’s all the information I have. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ As I said, I don’t follow her at all, but she has always been entitled to her opinions, and there’s certainly no shortage of crappy portrayal of women in games.

However, I tend to agree that complaining that Doom contains “[a] level of extreme violence [that] shouldn’t be considered normal.” and “It’s not an excuse to say it’s expected because DOOM.” is uh… profoundly weird.

I would say it’s exactly expected because it’s motherflippin’

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So? She don’t like the ultra gore of Doom? She’s allowed her opinion. She didn’t call for it to be banned, just wishes it wasn’t considered normal.

Still not seeing the “burn the heretic witch” moment in that. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Well, I didn’t say there was one! I don’t consider her a heretic witch at all. Not in the slightest.

But there is certainly a hint of what I’ve been saying all along. Dudes are violent, dudes are aggressive, and we love guns and explosions and ultraviolence, the more the better. I have plenty of statistics I can show you to prove that.

Women not so much.

(I honestly got a little excited when typing guns and explosions and ultraviolence and I’m not even joking)

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I mean the people you were referring to back here:

Not seeing what could have turned them off.

(also, down boy!! >.<)

Top 10 things the internet doesn’t need any more of:

  1. Searching Anita Sarkeesian’s tweet stream for statements that might provide ad hoc support to one’s casually-expressed belief that she n, where n is anything at all, absolutely anything. :smiley:
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I finished playing Bastion a few days ago. It’s an excellent game, with a great story. But, as I played through it, I had to wonder if the way that most gameplay challenges were violent actually undermined the story. The protagonist is a poor-but-honest working class kid who has to rebuild a world that his “betters” foolishly destroyed – so he’s running around killing and destroying what’s left? That seems like the opposite of what he should be doing.

I spent a lot of time playing Star Trek Online. It’s got a lot of flaws, and I can’t recommend it; I feel foolish I spent as much time playing it as I did. Its main appeal is that it’s supposed to be based on Star Trek – and one of the main appeals of Star Trek is that the protagonists were usually at pains to avoid using violence. And the game play in STO is almost exclusively about combat.

Even games with stories in which violence makes sense, it still doesn’t make sense that there would be as much violence as there usually is in games. When Sarkeesian remarks that the violence in Doom shouldn’t be considered normal, I take it to mean that she’s not saying that there shouldn’t be games like Doom, but that not every game should have as much violence as Doom.

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I can get why people would read her tweets as anti-violence in general:

People like the gameplay in Doom 4, including the gratuitous violence! This is a bad thing. Great to see Dishonored 2 with a female lead, but it shouldn’t have had the option of a male lead too! Fallout 4 is great, but it should be more like a puzzle game and less like a shooting game!

While in isolation these criticisms don’t hold up, I think I also get her main point (as explained in her recent article on the topic) - where violence is consistently given as the answer to confrontation, it’s not a mature way to approach conflict. Realism in video games should also mean that more interaction is non-violent. Of the 35 games in E3 where you can choose a male or female lead, only D2 predominantly advertises this fact in the marketing. Would it be so bad if you were only allowed to be female in a major game? It might help to encourage boys and men to see things from a female perspective for once. (There are some grey areas with the count of exclusively male-led and violent games, e.g. FFVII is male-led as Cloud is the leader and Yoshi is male as he is given male pronouns. Likewise, the fact that a game allows violence does not necessarily mean that violence is at the centre of gameplay). Violence in Fallout is OK, but pushing people to use their creativity and interpersonal skills more would make it a better game that would also have a wider appeal. If more diverse games were the norm, then high graphics whack-a-mole games like Doom 4 could also have their place.

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Interesting discussion! There’s a few points of contention I have from my own experiences, but I think there are some points that nail it.

The main point I would disagree with, in general, it this:

“Games grow up with boys from that point forward.”

The “games not growing up with me” resonated with me, but not because I’m a girl and there aren’t the mass mainstream AAA titles of specifically ultra feminine games in the same way there are ultra masculine ones (either way ends up like crass marketing to me) - but because games seemed like they had infinitely more potential than they seem to have in the current moment. Absolutely technology and graphical fidelity has come on in leaps and bounds; to the point of being unrecognisable, but other aspects just…haven’t kept pace. The ambition of early games is sorely checked by the bloat of the industry and the risk aversion of publishers.

I don’t think mainstream gaming really did grow up with the boys, in general (always exceptions, ofc). They could play things that looked more mature, but were still basically catering to very simplistic adolescent masculine hero fantasies. The games you mention as feminine? (Presumably because they have female protagonists?) Gone Home and Life is Strange? Or the Sims? (Presumably because it just isn’t blood and gutsy?) My male video gaming friends in their 30s and 40s play these games. They can appreciate the sophisticated storytelling; hell, I think they yearn for it. In the Sims (as well as football manager) they appreciate the free-form sandbox play style that allows them to create their own stories.

Which is not to say we don’t all enjoy killing zombies together in Left4Dead and robbing banks together in Payday (both very silly and very fun; which isn’t a bad thing) just that…they’re old enough to appreciate the parts that appeal to them without going “oh, no tits and explosions? these games must be for girls. and I’m too uncomfortable in my own sexuality to like them, then.”

Games haven’t grown up in general, really. They’re still catering to an idea of a core safe demographic of angry young men. I think generally, when we’re saying more games should be “female friendly” we might as well come out and admit what we really mean is more games “for adults.” Which is “not specifically designed and marketed for angry boy teenagers” but just broadly for people who…aren’t that.

“The social hierarchy of the gaming community, and the narrow, deforming spaces it offers to the women who do persevere.”

Absolutely. There’s a lot of toxic nastiness out there, though it can depend on the community surrounding which game (perhaps surprisingly, Eve-Online, a game usually cited for it’s harshness,I found to be very friendly) and there are some key concepts that contribute to the whole “can’t win” thing…

There’s a saying with MMOs which is - MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing as Girls. The term refers to the fact that many men play with female avatars, but there’s a truism under the joke which is - men just do not expect to see women playing. Therefore you will be assumed to be a man; your identity automatically marginalised and written out. If you respond to this by asserting your identity however calmly, “no, actually, I’m not a guy,” then you’re making A Big Deal out of your gender for attention - probably to extort goods or services from sad lonely men.

The other extreme (I say ‘extreme’ but both are pretty common) that comes from men not expecting to see women playing is being treated as some strange exotic animal rather than 50% of the population and immediately given unwanted attention, be it over-friendly attempts to get personal information, or the more hostile “tits or STFU”.

So I think there’s definitely a sense of not being able to win when fighting for a space, there. (again, only in a general sense. I have “won” by finding like-minded and mature people that I choose to associate with, but that doesn’t mean those people are the general rule).

“But it’s not like girls grow out of games, exactly… It’s that can get away with it."

Yeah. This is completely true. It’s like a double-stigma. Unlike books or movies, despite how lucrative the gaming industry is, there is still the idea that games are for children and a waste of time and that spending free time playing them is “sad.” It’s excusable, and somewhat indulged, for there to be “men children” who want to still play games and geek out, but women doing it get a much higher raised eyebrow. (I guess as there’s so much pressure for adult women to either get on with the childraising before the ol’clock stops ticking or build a successful career to stick it to the man and burst through the glass ceiling; neither of which seems to leave much room for slacking off playing video games, so the expectation is you shouldn’t and won’t)

It’s gradually becoming more accepted for women to cut loose in a similar way to men (such as ladette culture, binge drinking, casual sex) but the parity there is still relatively recent.

There’s an article I read recently about a film called Trainwreck staring Amy Schumer (http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/07/21/trainwreck-and-the-new-coming-of-age) which addresses the Peter Pan complex:

“things got weird with the Baby Boomers, the generation that brought us the Peter Pan Complex. All of a sudden extended youth became all the rage. My generation, Generation X, took it to the next level, bringing toys and cartoons with us into adulthood. If the Boomers stayed 18 forever, we stayed 15. And the Millennials seem to have an almost complete allergy to growing up, possibly caused in part by the Great Recession, which saw grown adults unable to leave home after college graduation.”

and the author argues that women, too, should have films that are Coming of Age stories (like the one in question) - because it’s part of a general shared human experience; you have this slacking off, sowing your wild oats stage, but then growing up comes to us all. But what irked some people about the film was not acknowledging that the slacking off (or partying hard) stage is only part of a general shared human experience for women until very recently.

Not that I’m saying that gaming is automatically indicative of immaturity - I don’t feel that it is (despite the ‘core demographic’ that mainstream gaming caters to) which is why I used the word stigma - I’m just talking about societal expectations.

“Games about everything.”

Yep.

This is absolutely the solution, and a solution I think we’re already working towards.

Not to specifically market to an idea of women and girls and what they like (this usually comes across as utterly hamfisted; reducing the entirety of female experience into a concentrated beam of sparkly pink glitter) and not to concentrate specifically on an idea of angry young men wanting ultra-violent simplistic machismo (which doesn’t give men much credit, either) but to have All The Things. Creatively, cast the net as wide as possible. (not saying any one game should try and appeal to everyone at all, just in general more variety and scope in the topics and themes which gaming can approach. Pushing the boundaries is how you expand and improve as a creative medium; which has the double pro of reducing some of the stigma that gaming has as a hobby).

Which is also not saying we can’t have sparkly pink or ultra-violence, they’re included in All The Things. It’s not about taking away, it’s about adding.

And there are some already diverse games; largely taking place in indie games (or bigger publishers willing to take a punt on an interesting concept), but yes, as your sister points out with, “I don’t see commercials for those, though,” - they tend to be less visible.

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