There doesn’t seem to be a good enough reason for some people, even if you aren’t ruling out having kids later. “I’m still in university in a different city, and she basically provides our only income.” My mum: “But she’s already in her mid 20s. Aren’t you being a bit selfish?” “Uh… no?” Other (older) people thought I was selfish for letting her work rather than look after the house, when we had no kids and cleaning the place took about an hour (and again, quitting university wouldn’t have been ideal for this goal of becoming the perfect single income family). The idea that we would get married and not try for kids immediately blew some people’s minds. My mum left a maths degree at a respectable university to marry my dad at 19. My grandparents (both sets) were not impressed, but for others I guess this is model behaviour.
I suppose one of the reasons for the way it’s mostly women putting pressure on others is that men generally can ‘do it all’ to some extent. I think some of the older women had the perspective that pursuing a career was either pointless as you’d just have to leave it soon anyway or meant that you would have to rule out having kids. I was selfish because marrying someone without providing everything for them (especially children, apparently) was cheating somehow, I guess. It’s funny, you can know some people for a while without realising quite how conservative their thinking is.
ha! my mum tried (most likely unconsciously) to force us to get children - sister 2 and I were totally happy when sister 1 fulfilled the grandchild-wishes of our mother
We’re both just happy that we’re not Chinese - our daughter was born in China, so we saw a little of the pressure women get to do things the proper Chinese way. Generally you need to pick a partner by about 27 or 28, otherwise your parents can choose for you. By 30 you need to have a child, at which point your mother in law moves in. There are a ton of ideas about what to do, eat, wear (e.g. anti radiation apron) during your pregnancy. Remember, this is the one grandchild both sets of parents will have. Competition is fierce.
People are quite vocal anyway, and especially if they think you can’t understand them. Sometimes you’ll get the whole bus discussing you, or nice older ladies casually predicting that your child will die or have problems because you had a cup of coffee. My wife almost got fired for not wearing flats at a parent teacher’s meeting. The birth itself gets even worse (for example, you can’t wash for weeks afterward, I guess because hot water used to be in short supply in the north), so we took the ‘brave’ decision to get a western midwife!
I remember bringing my oldest to China when she was 9 months old, and everywhere I walked people (usually old women) would come up to me and make it very clear I was doing something wrong. Mostly the concern was that she wasn’t bundled up like Nanook of the North: mid- to late March in Chicago means if the temperature goes above 30 we stop wearing jackets because it feels so warm, so silly me, I assumed a normal winter bunny suit with hood and mittens, booties, etc. would be sufficient for the relatively warmer climate there.
Just FYI - in Judaism, the close reading of the Torah shows that the commandment to be fruitful and multiply is made to MEN. So, the rabbis reason that MEN have make their women enjoy having sex with them in order for men to fulfill the commandment. For that reason, it has always been an allowable reason for a woman to request a divorce if her man does not sexually please her.
Now, a man does not have to grant her that divorce - a whole other story- but it’s somewhat pro-lady.
If it were something that was asked merely occasionally by people who really do want to understand your reasoning, sure there’s wisdom in that. But that’s never the case when I get asked “when are you two going to have kids.” Never.
The way it’s usually presented is an underhanded way of saying “well, I think you should have kids” and “I think everyone should have kids.” It’s the person trying to force their world view onto another by saying a question, they usually aren’t looking for insight into why you don’t want kids. I’ve answered the question too many times to the same damn people and over again to be very convinced that there is no wisdom here to not take it personally-- it’s them trying to force their worldview onto me.
I don’t want kids. Not now, not ever. I know for a certain fact that I will not change my mind. I have my reasons. Some of which I am willing to explain to people, others that I will not (they are MY reasons thank you very much, and you are not necessarily entitled to them just because you are curious.) But it boils down to I DO NOT WANT KIDS. It is not anyone’s position to try and change my mind, to probe into why, to try underhandedly push their view that kids are great and wonderful onto me. So, yes, I’m going to take it personally. Yes I’m going to have to take it personally that I have to talk like a broken record to people who have no interest on actually getting insight, but are just trying to say questions to me.
It’s especially fun with an adopted child when you have to explain to a random person in the supermarket that you’ve kind of grown attached to the little guy and no, they can’t just take him home, so could they give him back now please?
Absolutely. Well said. The specifics become very speculative and serve all kinds of dodgy agendas.
Yet even the general principle,* ISTM, is enough to do the damage. In one sense it doesn’t matter whether rape (for example) is explained as a direct attempt to spread genetic material or as a more complex expression of herd loyalty. Once we’ve conceded that both the act and our reaction to it come from the same place (adaptation), it undermines our moral response.
unless you want to hold it within some religious/teleological framework (writing here as a Christian)
For awhile in my early 20s I thought I didn’t want kids. Then somewhere around my mid 20s that changed, the best way I can describe it is that my arms felt empty. As it was it took more than 3 years and IVF to get a baby. However, I do think that most people who don’t want kids never change their minds.
I love my children more than anything in this world or the next, but I have zero interest in engaging in social chit-chat about your kids unless (a) I am never, ever going to see you again (so I am not obliged to remember) (e.g., an airplane seat mate) or (b) already am so involved in your life that your children are necessarily part of that relationship. The middle universe of “am I supposed to remember this freaking detail about this person when I see the again in three months” is why I’d never bring up the subject in a business meeting.
(As to the main topic, I think the question of “why didn’t you have kids?” is an important one – since it’s about the most universal thing in the world, when asking about a particular author/scientist/etc., the answer to that question might well be revealing.)
I humbly acknowledge my limited understanding of the term except as some kind of boring business speak that causes me to instantly zone out, and promise never to attempt to draw such an analogy again…
That’s a pity. Standards are basically the collected wisdom of civilisation reduced to a set of rules and examples. Unfortunately MBAs try to cover them in a few weeks, whereas years are needed to grasp fully what they are all about. The result is high level bullshit, but underneath the reason that cars rarely go wrong nowadays, that food is pretty safe and bridges rarely collapse is standards. And in much of the world outside the US, ISO 9000 is the Tao of running the working part of a business.
It would be nice if ISO (the organisation) did try to put together a standard for education, but I cannot imagine everybody agreeing. When it comes to home electrical wiring that doesn’t catch fire, or paper sizes, religion doesn’t come into it.
This is presumably because the concept of very early Judaism was that God fertilised the land and made it bring forth living things. The role of women was basically to act like plant pots. Onan’s sin, in fact, was to fail to put the seeds in the pot, not to fail to give the lady a satisfactory orgasm.
Yes, correct. It’s very tough to relate to the people in the Torah because it is such an early history. Many of the stories seem to be about “Our god does not require child sacrifice! Hooray our god!” and “Stripey sheep come from sheep screwing near stripey sticks,” and “Raping your dad is a good way to exert your power in the family.”
Also, the editing of it all seems to deliberately be a slam on the fertility cults.
I would say “because they have a rather animistic worldview.” Because there are plenty of people like that today. There are still people about who think that natural disasters occur because we have displeased some god, or that militarily defeating the followers of a different god is a religious duty. And that observation was not aimed at Muslims. George Bush had a command from God to invade Iraq, but I’m not sure which one.
As I get older I feel more and more that when it comes to religion there is this circle of firelight containing the Reform Jews, the Episcopalians, the Unitarians, Quakers and a few others, and outside are the looney tunes. It isn’t surprising that in the developed world outside the US religion is in a retreat that is accelerating. The problem is that those attitudes persist - and the attitudes to having children, contraception and abortion are still very influenced by conserative religionists.
