Over 170 nations agree to cut global-warming chemical used in refrigerators and air conditioners


#21

I know about Co2 and ammonia. My understanding is that they are not very effective, at least with current technology. The nice thing about the current refrigerants was that almost all R-12 and R-22 equipment could be retrofitted to use it, although it was not as effective.
I just answered my own question. HFO-1234yf can apparently be used in existing equipment. So, assuming it can be produced affordably, there should be few problems.


#22

Ammonia is a great refrigerant, it is just that it is toxic and can’t be in contact with any copper or copper compounds so it is usually in steel instead which isn’t as good of a heat conductor.

We wouldn’t have to worry about what a refrigerant chemical did to the environment if it were to simply stay contained, unfortunately that’s not possible because people will always break the law by illegally venting.

Even when it isn’t intentionally vented it still leaks because of poor brazing and other installation practices. Also because the metal used is just too thin.

You see phase change refrigeration is a reverse cycle and the smaller the temperature difference between the cold side and the hot side the less energy it takes to pump heat from cold to hot.

Copper tubing is a great conductor of heat but not perfect so there is a temp drop across it. There are 2 ways to make the temp drop smaller, either make the coil bigger so less heat is transferred per unit area or make the metal thinner. They chose thinner and now it’s hard to find coils that don’t leak after a couple of years. Larger coil with same thickness equals more material used but less leaks, same size coil with thinner metal equals less material used but more leaks.

So please when you are buying something that requires a refrigerant contact the manufacturers and request thicker materials that won’t leak. Do this so your shiny new refrigerator with a touch screen in the door doesn’t ruin all of your food when a paper thin coil springs a leak.


#23

This is the first time I’d heard about a refrigerant switch, but it seems like the right time to make this agreement. I found another article that talks about Whirlpool’s switch to HFO. It seems there are some energy efficiency benefits in addition to the global warming reduction, so this industry switch should be a no-brainer for everyone.


#24

While I agree with the material issues the residential industry just isn’t setup like that.

You want a warranty that you can call Carrier out to fix in 7 years, then you have to buy their complete system. Piece meal works fine if you have the tools, time, and understanding to put it all together (even with the help of a contractor it still takes time to source the exact parts you want). So you’ll end with a system that will probably last longer, but if something does go wrong will be much harder or more expensive to deal with.

Realistically, defined standards/parts would go a decent way to make things better. But then Carrier and everyone else would be hard pressed to make their products much different if they all used a standardized 2 ton vertical flow coil for the evap side…


#25

Propane is pretty good, except you know the flammable part…

I like the idea it can be used in existing equipment, but to be honest most manufactures don’t want to sell you parts - they want you to buy a complete system. Warranty, support, efficiency, all that is used to justify a new system compared to just replacing the leaking evap coil and putting in coolant. Given that most residential consumers don’t know much about how their air conditioners work many will take the up front cost of a new system to get the peace of mind of a 5+ year warranty.


#27

The 0.5C thing has been widely repeated by the media. It traces back to this study:


The paper says “up to 0.5°C” by the end of the century. And as HFCs are not accounted for properly in the IPCC models, that 0.5°C would have been in addition to any projection for future climate change you’ve already read about. In other words, this solves a problem almost nobody knew about, which would have made climate change even worse than expected. It’s an important move, but it really makes no big difference to the disaster we should expect if we don’t get CO2 emissions under control.

I’ve no idea what “gets us 90% there” refers to though, unless they mean the agreement will eventually cut 90% of projected HFC production. So, if you’re keeping score, that means global warming will now be only 0.05°C worse than you were expecting.


#28

You should probably state your affiliation to them…


#29

#30

You’re talking about producing a temperature gradient using ambient heat as the energy source? Sorry, that simply doesn’t make sense. What you’re describing is a net increase in entropy, or a perpetual motion device of the second type.


#31

You mean this one?


#32

Autoplaying video in the article ---- bad reporter, bad editor. Autoplay videos are never acceptable.


#33

Interesting fact that one of the foremost researchers and developers of the first chlorofluorocarbons was Thomas Midgley, who also developed tetraethyllead the lead additive for gasoline engines to allow higher compression ratios to be used and reduced knocking.

What a dangerous bstard!


#34

I’m just disappointed he was a drive by.


#35

Probably. Getting rid of externalities is a very good thing.


#36

This topic was automatically closed after 5 days. New replies are no longer allowed.