If the prostitute isn’t there of her (or his) own accord, has been coerced in anyway, and doesn’t have the ability to freely choose to be in this situation, I don’t see how it can’t be so. If someone didn’t enthusiastically decide to go into sex work (and I’ve known a couple of people who have decided to do so), then there is a serious problem. the criminalization of prostitution is part of the problem of course. But I’d guess that many women and men likely are coerced, especially in places where it’s not legal, which is many parts of the world.
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We had this discussion in Honolulu 2 years ago. Most citizens were appalled at this practice; HPD claimed that the evidentiary standards for prostitution are such that they couldn’t have any successful prosecutions without undercover cops being involved firsthand. (They’re probably not wrong, at least here; while there is considerable harassment and arrest of prostitutes, the number of convictions seems to be relatively low.) In any event, the law was changed to forbid this. Unfortunately, it led to nonsense like this.
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Today I learned that there actually is a good reason for prostitutes to ask whether the John is a cop.
Edited to add: Not because it gets them any protection from prosecution, but because like everyone else they are choosy about who they sleep with and decent people respect that. I am sure there are more cops having sex with prostitutes outside of their duties than as part of stings. And as much as we tend to forget, most cops are not yet fully spoiled by the bad apples.
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Nah, it’s still a bad idea.
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The prostitute in the situation being discussed has agreed to have sex with a john in exchange for money. She would not have agreed to have sex with a cop for no money and then to be arrested. The cop knowing this, has sex with her because he can, with the understanding that she has no recourse given her position.
It is exploitation, and rape by lack of informed consent. It is along the same lines of using the threat of jail to coerce a detained or otherwise comprimsed individual into unconstitutional “searches” or to otherwise do the officers bidding. That is the unequal power dynamic being discussed here.
Prostitutes and johns are a different territory, though I agree with the above commenters stating that prostitutes are almost always the biggest losers in terms of safety and financial and legal well being.
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This. If the sex worker knew his/her client was an undercover cop, no transaction would rationally occur. Undercover officers, refusing to reveal their true role in the transaction are committing entrapment. There are few clearer examples available.
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Hmmm, I’ve been trying to parse this out.
My initial reaction was that “State sponsored rape” is overstating things, and I think use of this type of rhetoric creates fuel for a counter-argument that clouds over the real issue. No one commenting here seems to think that this is ok. Instead there is an argument over what constitutes “rape”, which is a very powerful word that seems to have a strong emotional effect on most people of both genders.
Prostitution is illegal in Alaska apparently(prostitution probably shouldn’t be illegal, but that argument has no bearing on this argument).
I am using this definition of prostitution: Performing sex acts, with or to another individual or individuals in exchange for money.
People have sex for all sorts of different reasons, but in this circumstance, the overt reason for one party to engage in sex acts is unambiguous, it is to earn money.
Sex, in this instance, is unambiguously a service being provided. Consent(to whatever is agreed upon) is a given. Sex with a prostitute is consensual. If you don’t pay the prostitute, it is theft of service, or it would be if prostitution were legal. Of course if prostitution was legal, there wouldn’t be an argument here, as the prostitute would have legal avenues in which to pursue payment for their services, and I would imagine you’d have to pay up front for the service to begin with.
Since it is illegal to pay someone for sex, and to accept payment for sex, it would seem to me to be impossible for a cop to pay a prostitute for sex, and actually have sex with them, without breaking the law themselves. How this is not already illegal is beyond me. It is complete bullshit that shouldn’t be happening. It is certainly an abuse of power.
Yes, but using the powerful word to describe the power-enabled sexual violation of vulnerable women is the point.
I do think, though, that we are really talking about the concept of rape and not the legal definition, because that definition varies from state to state. And in some states, not all non-consensual sexual contact is defined as “rape” but may be called “sexual assault”, with a tradition of only calling non-consensual penis in vagina sex rape, and even then exempting married women from the possibility. I think those using the term here and elsewhere to describe cops using their power to fuck women so they can arrest them is a way of bringing attention to this very personal sexual violation and betrayal using a short hand that most people can grasp instantly.
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The vast majority of female prostitutes regularly put themselves at risk of being physically assaulted by men who are physically stronger than they are. Most prostitutes also have limited social or legal recourse if and when they are assaulted by said men. These are not “sex-negative” stereotypes, they are simple and tragic realities of the sex trade.
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Nope. It’s still rape. People have been convicted for it here where sex-work is legal. (Australia).
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In scenario #2, the prostitute does not get to keep the money. And the policeman never had any intention of letting her keep the money. So your two scenarios are not identical prior to the arrest, because the intent of the officer is different. Intent matters, even if the victim isn’t aware of the intent.
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[quote=“Aloisius, post:85, topic:92278”]
Where is the line?
[/quote]Consent! Consent is the fucking line, it doesn’t matter how minor the lie that breaks that consent. The entire basis of a line being crossed from consentual sex to rape is in the fucking description.
[quote=“Aloisius, post:92, topic:92278”]
Eh. I don’t think we need to talk about consent at all. It just muddies the water as you’d get into all sorts of issues with all the other illegal transactions cops do undercover.
[/quote]https://media.giphy.com/media/BmnbtcKKBGqfS/giphy.gif
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Reading this thread made me feel sad…but some really good replies in here kept me going.
I fall into this camp. Who the fuck are law makers to tell women (or men) what they can and can’t do with their own bodies. I don’t see how punishing sex workers helps make the world any better of a place.
When you take legal punishment off of the table there is a lot you can do to protect these people, from free std screening, to safe havens from abuse and exploitation. Making it a crime leads to exploitation, human sex trafficking, and a lot of really sketchy situations, and prevents them from reporting crimes against them for fear of being punished themselves.
BUT as long as it is illegal, any cop who engages in the crime should be punished same as anyone else, actually more maybe even since it is their job to protect and keep the public safe, not exploit and rape. I think we should hold them to a higher standard instead of giving them free passes to be criminals in uniforms.
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No worries. Thanks for keeping me honest. 
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Are you currently suffering from broken hands, an average penis, a inflexible back, and fatal explosive blue ball syndrome? If yes, I highly recommend you seek immediate medical assistance and stop projecting your position onto every male ‘John’ on the planet.
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A couple of things to keep in mind (which seem to have been used the longer this thread goes on, but still):
• the preferred term is sex worker
• men are sex workers too
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Good thing that’s not allowed in other western democracies.
Yes undercover cops are used but lying during interrogation/examination, e.g. made up evidence, is a big No-No.
BTW that’s probably another reason why the attitude by and to police officers is different over here. If you see the police as someone or something that will do everything, including lies and deception, to get you arrested/convicted every interaction is prone to get perceived as antagonistic and more likely to escalate to violence.
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This is all I have to add: a little over a decade ago the police force in Nashville, Tennessee had a policy of using confidential informants–men with criminal records–to solicit sex in strip clubs. The informants were never tested for STDs and police often sent the same informants back to the same establishments–sometimes to the same sex worker–multiple times. Police couldn’t explain why this was necessary. The practice was eventually stopped but only after extensive reporting and criticism from law enforcement experts
It sounds like the only difference is that in Alaska it’s police themselves rather than informants.
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I am a bit dismayed this isn’t already a thing, but I am also not surprised…
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“Sex positive” in this case apparently means “it’s cool to have sex with sex workers” and less “I am concerned about the well being and safety of sex workers”.
As “people should have sex” but apparently not about the consent of the women and men selling their bodies.
That’s a twisted derivation of the concept.
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