I was curious about Berman’s other work, and I’ve noticed that she has been a figure downplaying Trump (she was a “he will shift to center as president” type immediately after the election) and generally saying that democracy is not failing the United States. I don’t really see a reason to follow her heavy massaging of race relations into a strategy. I mean, in the link showing the decrease in racist beliefs in America it point out that the percent of people OK with mixed race marriage crossed 50% in 1997.
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I don’t believe that’s necessarily the case, and it’s most certainly not what I’m going for here.
That’s what I’m getting at. I’m not dismissing anyone’s particular battles. I just wish folks were more inclined to frame them all as aspects of the same fight, and at the same time, integrate the message of the linked article and minimise the possibility of potential allies being triggered into the prevailing us/them dichotomy.
Folks tend to consider this stuff in the light of how they as an individual might react, but people en masse are predictable and easily manipulated by those who understand the mob mentality. It’s time we started fighting out how to stop being on the wrong end of such techniques.
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The fuck?!
What am I, some blow-in trolley you haven’t seen around here for years? Where are you getting this fucking crap?
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Um, except republicans.
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Yeah, well, that’s not a great rap, huh. Several grains of salt taken.
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Pretty sure it wasn’t “let’s just focus on classism and downplay race in the name of unifying the electorate.”
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That’s not exactly what I’m saying, either. I’m saying that given the tendencies outlined in the article, it would probably help quite a lot to bear that stuff in mind, in order to peel a slice off the deplorables; say the folks who voted Obama and then Trump.
It’s not a black-and-white situation (pun coincidental) - this is a fairly nuanced argument. But hey, whatever, you guys have a dogpile going, so fuck this shit. Keep playing my PCness is bigger than your PCness without me.
I suggest changing the topic title to something like “Please read this article about political strategy”
The current title is just flamebait.
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As I understand it, doesn’t the American white left have an unfortunate history of compromising on issues important to the minorities, or outright throwing them under the bus, as long as the white working class has gained?
This, again AIUI, was a big part of why the minority reactions to Bernie Sanders were so lukewarm: they’ve heard the “class inequality is the real problem, and once we tackle that, racism and sexism and the rest solve themselves” thing before, and it has never worked that way.
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Thanks for your positive contribution; done.
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no, you’re not which is why i’m speaking so plainly because i’m so surprised at the way you keep coming across on this.
because this is what you’re sounding like. maybe you don’t mean to but that’s really the way it sounds.
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Citation very much needed.
This is trivially true. Similarly the statement “interpretations are interpretations” is trivially true. The conclusions of that article, while based on scientific studies, were interpretations, not facts.
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This! All of this. But especially
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Fuckin’ A.
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It is the case enough times that it is a known problem to activists all around the world. Forcing all the different groups to fight for the same cause in the same way will lead to acrimonious splits, which is what we absolutely do not want. It is better to have different groups who have good relationships with each other and know how to fight their own battles, and who will work together when needed.
Besides, centralisation is not the way I do things. I am surprised that you seem to think it is though.
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I don’t know if I want to tread on this topic since I’m of two minds of identity politics but here goes. In my opinion all politics are identity politics but that should be obvious at least as I see it. What is the real problem right now with the utilization of identity politics on the left is that we’ve let neoliberals set the terms of such utilization where identity politics is more about the empty inclusion of a minority rather than actually changing the norms and laws that result in the mistreatment of said minority or group. A great example of this is the pursuit of adding more non-white executives to various company boards. It’s not about abolishing the social institution of race and racism but rather cultivating the identities of racial minorities for profit. It’s like how philanthropy is used as a signifier of prestige and social standing among the rich. Your company is more enlightened if it hires more of the right groups rather than making it possible for those groups to stand on their own which wouldn’t require anyone to actively seek to hire them (they would just be in the hiring pool and employee base from the start). Essentially, you can’t ignore things such as racism, misogyny, homophobia, and the like because they’re all entwined with the larger complex of our economic conditions. What’s important is to ensure that the act of inclusion and use of identity politics isn’t hinged on its use for propping up those economic conditions. Or in simpler terms, you can walk and chew your gum at the same time.
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Maybe it’s not what you meant, but it is almost verbatim what you said.
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Look. I can’t speak to the struggles of people of color, as I’m white (other than relate what others have told me and what I’ve actually read), but even though I’ve “moved” up the social ladder in my lifetime, I STILL HAVE TO STRUGGLE WITH SPECIFIC ISSUES RELATED TO MY GENDER. It’s not ME (or other women) who have created categories and the identity that leads to us being discriminated against in society. My situation is very different compared to women who are still solidly working class, but I still have to struggle. Dismissing it on my part will not make the ingrained prejudice of men go away.
I’ll make this more concrete for you: when I walk into the class room, having earned a PhD in my field, I still have to struggle to get respect from the vast majority of young (especially white) men in the class. These are kids, more than half my age, who don’t know shit, yet they refuse to treat me with the same respect they’d treat a man, despite the fact that I worked just as hard as any man with my equivalent degree. This is true of every single woman I know in my field. None of the men have this problem. They are automatically afforded respect, just by fucking existing and standing in front of the classroom, even if they are still grad students. Economic class has little to do with that.
I’m fucking exhausted with this struggle on a regular basis.
As white people, can we not do this. Please. MLK wants to be left out of this pissing contest. Let’s not appeal to MLK.
And to do this, WE HAVE TO MAKE WHITE PEOPLE AND MEN REALIZE THAT GENDER AND RACE ARE CONSTRUCTS. It’s not ME or other women, or people of color of all genders who have the power to produce and reproduce these constructs, and when they do, IT’S IN SELF DEFENSE, to remind ourselves that we can exist AS WE ARE and we are worth the struggle for greater dignity.
There are plenty of studies to suggest that the people who drive sexism and racism are not just the ones at the top. Working class white men have themselves pushing to preserve their “privileges” even when the people who are more powerful than them are pushing for greater inclusion. Even a superficial survey of the American labor movement (and other class movements like the 19th century populist movements) show this to be the case. Even in the midst of the American civil war, which was a war to end slavery, white, Irish Americans rioted in 1863, because they rejected wanting to fight a war to end slavery, which to their mind would create greater competition from freed blacks moving north for jobs in the growing industrial sector.
I’m happy to struggle against those who would divide and conquer us. I realize it’s stacked against us. I’m not stupid, so please don’t talk down to me like I don’t know all this, when you very well know that I do. But I would very much like to stop being told to give up my struggles as a woman, because there are more important things. They all matter.
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There are some serious issues with the article, though. Just because it’s researched, doesn’t mean it’s all right or free of bias. @emo_pinata noted some already, as I did above, with regards to race.
Another problem I found that I’ll state here is that she’s focusing on sort of tribal associations, which might be ingrained, but they are contextual and locally experienced. If someone who’s white, grows up around only/mostly whites, and has a positive childhood, then they are more likely to be tribal about their race, I’d guess. I’m not so inclined, since although I grew up in a white majority town, I certainly did not have a good experience as a kid, with most of the bullies who were shitty to me being white (and I can’t think of a single person of color I grew up with who was nothing but kind to me - not a bully among them). I find myself less inclined to identify with other whites as a result (as least consciously).
And once again, since many working class people don’t vote, the vote was handed to Trump primarily by middle and upper middle class whites. It’s not a class issue, for the most part. And those people who identify with Trump because of the politics of class are MORE likely to reject race as having any bearing on their lives and ESPECIALLY on the lives of others.
True. Not all leftists, but it’s been a big enough issue historically to say that it has a great deal of truth to it. When the mainstream unions started opening up to people of color and women in leadership positions, just happened to be the time when you started to see some white men moving away from unions. Those two facts aren’t unrelated.
True again. It’s not that easy, unfortunately. Nor will fixing issues of racism and sexism instantly fix the class problem. They are interrelated issues, especially in America.
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This is exactly my issue with those who complain about identity politics. Society has been set up so that anybody who isn’t a white man is slotted into some category of “the other” and treated as if they were less human. When the inevitable reproachment comes, some folks treat it as if it was the problem rather than a symptom, as if the oppressed were the cause of the divisions, as if they had chosen to be classified as “other”. It’s the usual blame-the-victim game.
ETA: Maybe i should have waited to comment seeing as you, @anon61221983, covered my emphasis later in your comment.
But nah. It’s worth saying a million times.
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