Potent Musk

It’s also the Labour Party that Jeremy Corbyn belongs to and Tony Benn belonged to before he died. It’s still the same Labour Party that nationalised healthcare. The Third Way now looks like it was a twenty year failed experiment.

I am not a big fan of the Labour party even now, they want to reform things that I believe cannot be reformed, but I don’t doubt that most of their members identify as socialists based on Corbyn’s election as leader and successfully winning the leadership challenge.

The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect

That is on the back of every Labour Party membership card. Blair did remove the parts that referred to collective ownership of the means of production, but Corbyn has expressed an interest in putting them back in.

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And in fairness, Tesla and Solar City will fail not because their basic concept is unsound, but because other businesses are in a position to implement them just as well if not better sooner than either of Musk’s companies can get on sound footing. The Powerwall is an excellent complement to solar panels, but it’s neither original nor complicated.

More on topic, I agree that when I say I’m a socialist, I mean I’m a social democrat, not a democratic socialist, communist, etc. Food, shelter, water, electricity, telecom, health, public transportation, etc. should be for the public benefit (though not necessarily state managed, and even in the US many of those are already regulated for public benefit in many places). More co-ops, credit unions, labor unions, community foundations, etc. would be nice, and tilting things (back) in their favor is to our benefit.
But hey, I’m a young, white guy with money in the bank (well, credit union), so I’ve got a vested interest in maintaining the current system, but fixing it so it doesn’t burn down around me.

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Fair enough. I still think that, in the US, we are using “democratic socialist” to describe a lot of things that would be better described as “social democrat.”

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There’s obviously a distinction to be made between the two, and at the moment the DSA’s actual positions are more “social democrat” than “democratic socialst”. However in the U.S. any PFJ vs. JPF debates obscure what’s actually going on, which is an attempt to push the Dems away from neoliberalism-lite and back towards being the party of FDR.

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Collective ownership of the means of the production does not have to be by the government. They could be run by co-operatives, for example.

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T’was a joke, dude; an attempt at interjecting some levity into the conversation, even

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Everywhere. Because we’re talking the kind of “socialist” programs that exist throughout Europe, etc.

Sure because that would be totally impossible without Elon Musk and capitalism, right? You’re literally claiming that no government-run space program could possibly have reduced costs and developed a reusable rocket? Because that’s what the assertion was with which I was taking issue. FFS.

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Thanks. I guess I reacted that way because, to a lot of Americans, these two ideas do seem to be essentially the same, which shows how skewed US politics are right now.

Which are by and large, not “socialist.” Having universal health care and education does not make a system socialist.

I’m claiming that despite many opportunities, in many different systems, no government-run space program has done this. I think looking at how things actually do work out is a lot more useful than speculating about how they might possibly work out, or fantasizing about how they would work out if a particular ideology lived up to all of its ideals. Would you care to point out where I “literally” claim anything about what a government program could “possibly” do?

That was in response to your assertion that:
“Space X is literally doing what NASA and others were already doing,”
Which is demonstrably, false, unless “literally” doing what someone was already doing means doing something they can’t, or doing something 15x cheaper than they were doing it.

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Look, I’m fine with Space Cadet Second Class Musk trying his hand at private space exploration. But can we please stop having Every. Damn. Space thing be about his investments?

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Your planet is burning down around you. You will not escape to space, no matter what they promise you. You will die here, with the rest of us, regardless of whether you have the newest xbox or a nice in-town apartment. Regardless of whether Bernie wins in 2020 or weed is legalized, things are just pretty much not going to be OK. The eco-social fabric that allows us to live on this planet is unraveling. The “current system” is unraveling it. You absolutely have a vested interest in burning that system down.

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Sorry, I’m not the caricature you’re looking for. I live with my retired mother and disabled father in their in-law apartment, I don’t have a game console or a TV, and my computer is 7 years old. I don’t do drugs, alcohol, or caffeing (Barq’s excluded). I don’t believe in pipe dreams whether Bernie’s or Musk’s. But I can still be optimistic that there’s a future not too different from our present.

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You can be as deluded as you like.

Best case scenario, in thirty years the world is far worse off than it is now, but people will have finally woken up to the institutionalised idiocy at some point, and started to turn things around before the climate and biosphere have been completely destroyed.

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Thank you. I was going to comment the same thing. I believe the goal is to shift corporate focus away from investor enrichment to labourer benefit.

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Actually FDR was a conservative Democrat. The reason he pushed the New Deal is he thought if he didn’t, the US would end up as a communist or fascist dictatorship, or under a populist dictator (Hello, there, Huey Long.)

It’s always kinda weird to see space technology held up as an example of capitalist superiority given that the USSR won pretty much every contest in the space race except for the moon landing. And the moon landing thing was mainly down to metallurgy and Korolev’s cancer.

First satellite, first live flight, first human, first woman, first long orbit, first rendezvous, first spacewalk, first lunar probes, etc. etc.

Also:

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Name a way for the boring company to be anything more than an unimportant vanity project without either public mass transit funding or a stripping of property rights. Tunnels suck for private transportation if you actually have to own the land.

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I find the Musk-worship amusing, especially the bit where we’re supposed to pretend that he’s not just a moderately bright asshole with more money than he knows what to do with and a mild case of Dunning-Kruger that’s common to engineers.

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I don’t buy it. I agree that Tesla has brought the all-electric car into the mainstream at least a decade ahead of when it would have, and made electric cars desirable. I don’t agree that Musk has been doing this for the payoff, and that none of this would have occurred in a socialist society. On the contrary, Musk would have had a hard time spending the massive pile of wealth he was sitting on before Tesla in his lifetime even if he had been burning $100 bills with a Boring Company flamethrower 24/7. It is unlikely, even if he realizes the bonus phase of Tesla, that he will recoup all of his investment. He would have done all of this anyway. For all that his gigantic ego is tied up in the success of his ventures, I think it’s also clear that he actually means the altruistic aspects as well.