I’m glad it’s all funny to you, I guess, the lives of other humans…
8 Likes
When I see the Caribbean and the West’s interest in some of it, I wonder if some disgruntled plantation owner there formed a secret society to ensure Haiti (and a few others) are on somebody’s shitlist for as long as possible, a few centuries ago. Though it’s hardly unusual to see former colonies hamstrung like this it seems.
I mean… yes. That’s the case. It’s not a secret society, though, it is fully out there in the public for anyone to see. The war debt for one is exactly what that was - punishing the formerly enslaved for throwing off their enslavers. 
8 Likes
The plot thickens…
4 Likes
I heard on NPR that the former Haitian Pres was apparently all sorts of corrupt, and technically, not really truly pres anymore, in that he did not win the previous election. He simply refused to leave when his term was up (much like trumpy was trying to do). So, from the US perspective, pretty dictatorish. Although I can’t see Biden actually authorizing an attack like that, I also can’t see him (or the current administration) crying about it either.
That is incorrect. It was a dispute over how long he’d been in office, due to being sworn in more than a year after he was elected. There were calls for him to step down due to corruption and he was ruling by decree. However, there had not been a Presidential election since 2016 when he was elected. But there is plenty of evidence that he was corrupt. He was also OUR guy… so.
As for corruption, we just hide ours better and in fact have legalized a good deal of it. Trump revealed a good deal of it, but we all know its there and we largely go along with it. How about we stop wagging our fingers at other countries that have had deeply difficult histories (in part, thanks to us) and fix OUR shit instead of acting like our shit doesn’t stink? 
We have real, deep, systemic problems that we need to focus on now. If we want to help Haiti, we should open our doors to the people there and do what we can to help them.
10 Likes
The article is paywalled, but the headline now talks about two Haitian-Americans with Florida connections.
1 Like
Yeah, but all the crap they’ve gotten since then… it certainly didn’t end with that debt, also, you probably know, why is the US so willing to take over from the French in oppressing former French colonies… Haiti, Vietnam, etc?
The country has been highly unstable in the 20th century. And yes, that’s in large part due to the US occupation early in the century. We’ve been involved since that time. That instability eventually laid the groundwork for the Duvalier dictatorship, who we liked, especially towards the end because the son proclaimed himself anti-communist (Reagan of course would lavish cash and prizes on anyone who claimed they hated communists, no matter how brutal). When the son Jean-Claude (Baby Doc) was driven from power in the 1980s, it triggered more and deep US involvement, in part due to continued instability. Clinton sent troops in the 1990s as part of his larger set of pro-active and interventionist foreign policy (which was hit or miss, frankly - he got the Balkans and North Ireland right, and did his level best on Palestine/Israel - the Oslo accords - I think there is a documentary on that on HBO in fact?). Operation Uphold democracy in 1994 helped keep the newly elected president Aristide, who was pretty popular among everyone but the Haitian elite. But of course, since he was backed by the US, he implemented “free market reforms” in the country… you can guess what happened. Arstide was eventually driven from power after a few disputed elections and claimed that after a major coup, it was US led, which is entirely likely since that’s how we roll. Since then there have been disputed elections, a few of major hurricanes, the 2010 earthquake, etc. Now this.
So, yes, Monroe doctrine is STILL in effect. We are the world’s police and the largest empire in the world right now.
11 Likes
Ah, so basically it was just the US taking up the mantle of colonial overlord, exploiter and general ruiner of anything positive for people who aren’t rich, white and supportive of said overlord’s interests.
I was hoping it would be something even slightly interesting, not the same old sordid story 
1 Like
Sorry it’s not more exciting, but that’s what you’re going to get with modern empire. No new tale to tell.
I do suspect that most Haitians would prefer to live an even more boring life, without their superpower neighbor “helping” all the time.
9 Likes
Yeah, but the Roman one had loads of interesting bits, as did more than a few others… not so much in the last couple of centuries it seems
I’m sure you’re one hundred percent right about the average Haitian, “may you live in interesting times” is definitely shade, wherever it originated.
Not a secret at all. France imposed a mammoth debt on Haiti in 1825, which was paid off just in time for the Duvalier family to loot the country with the help of major international finance institutions, notably the World Bank. Looting the country was profitable and done in the open. The reason the US stepped up as France stepped back is just who was a dominant global player. In the post war period France had a lot of internal rebuilding to handle and the US stepped in to fill the void.
I think we are largely just working from different baseline assumptions. If there is no evidence for who carried out a coup or assassination in the Americas, I default to the US being the strong contender. The news in the intervening time doesn’t suggest that is a misplaced guess. We’re up to two Americans arrested and the Haitian government requesting US troops. Haiti requests US troops to protect infrastructure after assassination | Haiti | The Guardian A child born during the last US backed coup in Haiti wouldn’t be old enough to vote and a child born at the end of the military occupation (2019) that followed wouldn’t be in kindergarten yet.
3 Likes
I agree, but I think baseline assumptions, for the most part, should be as close to neutral as possible, especially for important things like this.
Everyone has biases, and some of those biases are based on experience/history. But biases can lead us down the wrong path with out evidence. I read one American but if we are up to two, then ok. There were several Colombians as well, but that doesn’t lead me to think Columbia is necessarily behind it.
With so many suspects captured, it shouldn’t be too hard to get someone to give up who hired them. I guess we will see.
1 Like
I recently listened to the Haitian revolution episodes on Mike Duncan’s Revolutions, and the last episode on what has happened since the revolution was so horrifyingly depressing that I had to stop listening for a few weeks.
@nick_warr might also want to listen to the Haitian revolution episodes
11 Likes
The first successful (modern) slave revolution did make them piss their pants. They’d never forgive that, and they were running their own private foreign policy.
eta:
saw Southern planters raise private armies for expeditions
Funded, in part, by mortgaging their “property” to Northern and European investors.
5 Likes
But not by force of arms, after sending two regular armies and losing, as well as expeditionary forces from other countries (including US).
It seems like the major powers got together and enforced a blockade (and threats) until Haiti capitulated.
1 Like
Yeah. Of the three big revolutions of that era, the Haitian was easily the most radical, and the outcome the most depressing.
What’s Revolutions? A podcast? Got a link for that?
8 Likes
https://revolutionspodcast.libsyn.com/
The revolutions covered are
- English Civil War/Commonwealth of England
- American Revolution
- French Revolution
- Haitian Revolution
- Gran Columbia
- The Paris Uprising of 1832 (the one that is famous because of Les Miserables)
- The European Revolutions of 1848
- The Paris Commune
- The Mexican Revolution
- The Russian Revolution (This is planned to be the final revolution covered, 59 episodes in and he’s only just started WW1)
Mike Duncan also did a series on the Western Roman Empire before he did Revolutions.
9 Likes
This looks awesome! I’ll have to check it out at some point.
3 Likes
