Recreational drug kratom hits the same brain receptors as strong opioids

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First we need some SHOCKING headlines about Teens These Days and their Kratom Sex Parties!

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And the Prozac you take with your morning coffee hits the same serotonin receptors as the party drug ecstasy.

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Is this anything like Giggle Pig?

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I have tried Kratom, few strains.

Alas, I have barely ever been prescribed opiods, and have generally stopped taking them ASAP because I would rather be in pain than feelā€¦ however? Fuzzy and numb I guess. And low energy.

Kratom is nice, but keeps me awake all night. So that is also a no go. I am probably better off sober anyways.

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One week later, this headline (and subhead):

Teens discovering that opioids are ā€˜total buzz-killā€™ for sex parties
Youth now spending entire evenings literally watching Netflix and chilling

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Prozac mainly blocks reuptake of serotonin (though it does act as a weak antagonist at the serotonin 2C receptor). MDMA blocks reuptake and acts as a full agonist at serotonin receptors. Big difference. And at recreational doses, it does this so well that it induces downregulation (read: winnowing) of those serotonin receptors. With enough recreational doses, this downregulation can become permanent.

Therapeutic doses of MDMA are much lower though, to my knowledge, the peer-reviewed research studying its clinical efficacy for depression hasnā€™t yet determined its therapeutic index.

My advice: skip the party, take some shrooms with a good friend, and go for a stroll in the meadows.

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I actually went completely off my psych meds in preparation for a mushroom trip.

/because eliminating mania without doing anything for depression or anxiety (sorry, but a beta blocker isnā€™t cutting it) seems to be the modus operandi for any doctor I see

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I know a couple of people who were fairly long-term opioid users who shifted over to kratom successfully and who are now worried that their method of diversion might be denied them.

Iā€™ve done it a couple of times and the stuff works ok, but it tasted so horrid (it must have a ph like a million) and made me fairly nauseated. I donā€™t know if I could do enough to make it worthwhile as a recreational drug considering I live in a city on the West Coast. I can get real opioids pretty easily for around the same money as kratom.

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Yeah, pretty much any med that blocks 5-HT2A is effectively an ā€˜ABORTā€™ button for shroom trips.

For all you psychonauts out there, that list includes all the second-generation antipsychotics and the antidepressants trazodone and mirtazapine.

Do not rely on those last two for aborting an acid trip, though. That requires the heavy hitters (first-gen antipsychotics, some second-gen). So Iā€™ve heard anyway.

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Iā€™ve tried MDMA while simultaneously on prozac. It was like drinking a glass of water.

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Just did a quick Google. The Bluelighters concur with your experience 100%.

Iā€™m out of hypotheses for this one. Time for me to go back to the literature.

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Iā€™m guessing fluoxetine just has a higher binding affinity for the receptors. Same as naloxone for heroin.

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Thatā€™s what snags me. Naloxone is an inverse agonistā€”not just an antagonistā€”of mu-opioid receptors. And given its efficacy, probably a noncompetitive one at that.

Fluoxetine, at least what I know of it, doesnā€™t have any such mechanism. Direct mechanism, anyway. Itā€™s plausible that it has an effect on second-messenger systems that somehow blunts response to MDMA, but thatā€™s just a conjecture.

One thing I can sayā€”from experience, not journal articlesā€”is that mirtazapine will bail your ass out of a bad shroom trip in no more than fifteen minutes and will absolutely steamroll any nausea you might have had.

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  • Ton of metal and glass moving at lethal speeds?
    Okay for recreation.
  • Firing weapons designed to kill?
    Okay for recreation.
  • Climbing, diving, gliding, etc risking injury/death?
    Okay for recreation.
  • Consuming part of a plant to feel different?
    Criminal activity.
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You forgot ā€œInternetā€

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Kratom in moderation is wonderful. And the nausea plus horrible taste is a feature, not a bug.

Iā€™m sorry.

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My point was that just because kratom hits the same receptors as ā€œhardā€ drugs, that doesnā€™t necessarily mean it has effects anywhere close to those chemicals as OPā€™s sensationalism would suggest.

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Totally agree. The headline could easily have been ā€˜Recreational drug kratom is in fact a weak opioidā€™. The original headlineā€™s use of the word ā€˜strongā€™ is superfluous. Either it targets the same receptors or it doesnā€™t (or only some of them, or additional others, etc). All other things being equal, binding affinity and agonist type (partial, full, super) are the main factors determining ā€˜strengthā€™.