Red Pill, Blue Pill: if Dr Seuss wrote about Men's Rights Advocates

MRAs are the Rule 63 version of 70s/80s RadFems. I dislike them both for what are ultimately the same reasons. Both groups promote ideas around gender that make my psychological personal safety alarms ring.

Unfortunatly there doesn’t appear to be a reasonable version of MRAs (yet), while there are plenty of reasonable feminists who are not RadFems (but may still be radical).

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Reasonable MRAs are called feminists


I rarely think about how intensely glad I am that I haven’t been dating for, like, 15 years. But holy crap am I ever glad not to be dealing with that right now. I was very much nervous to the point of paralysis, and clueless to the point of unintentional parody. I spent most of high school with a crush on a girl I was friends with - it never went anywhere, which in retrospect was probably positive for both of us.

A big retrospective thank you to a girl I met in university who, while not quite asking me out, nevertheless dropped hints as subtle as sledgehammers. It didn’t work out in the long term, but she changed my life

anyway, I end this friday drunkpost with the song it reminded me of:

I don’t know why
The people want to meet
When all they know is that
They’ll breed like rabbits in the end

Cause ordinary people on the street
They never know
But if they can’t be rabbits
They’ll be friends


Wow, this quickly blew up into a different discussion, which IMO is fine, because the faux Seuss wasn’t very good.

I am critical of “dating” also. People both for and against make it sound as if there was some real social protocol at work in this, but if there is any, it seems elusive. Sure, it would be great for people to know if they were interested in each other, and how interested, and what kind of interested. But the reality of it seems fairly random to me. Even “asking a person out” does not necessarily clarify to them (or even one’s self) how one feels about them.

Dismissing romantic love as being a sketchy ideal only brings other problems to the foreground. If all sexual relationships are ultimately just between friends, then does one, and how does one, determine which friendships have sexual components and which do not? People seem to be deliberately obscure about this sort of thing, systematically avoiding being either completely open or closed, and instead required some weird internested social rituals with varying degrees of ambiguity. So it’s hardly any wonder that many find such issues “difficult” or “confusing”.

How do I break off a topic into a different topic? Cuz I haz some insights :smile:

Traditional modes of courtship had many. many problems, but they did offer clarity. It’s a price worth paying, but it’s certainly a price that was paid.

If you like, you can click to the right of a comment where it says: “+ Reply as linked Topic”

I am flailing internet today. No such link exists on my phone.

…can you do it for me? :smile:

XD OK… here you go!


This whole idea that women can’t just ask a guy out is so outdated. It just plays into the idea that women have less agency (if you’re a traditionalist) or are the sexual gatekeepers (if you’ve taken the red pill). I like the idea that people need to be both sexual subjects and objects to some degree - it’s good for women to express positive interest and for men to hear it.


Those two are maybe not the best role models. (And I can only imagine how well Lady Mac validates MRAs’ cartoon villain notions of womankind.)


So you’re not a weirdo. Good for you.

Like hell it does. Rejection can be a vicious circle. Every time you get a little more hopeless and depressed, and that’s not exactly a turn on. Then one day you notice you are old.

So I’m starting to accept that without any one out of social skills, charisma, or hotness, me and my fellow weirdos will be extinct in a few decades. Maybe we can rally the WWF for our cause, put us in a zoo with nice, large cages and set up a breeding program. Isn’t ISIS doing something like that? I got the beard, but I don’t want to live in a crazy-ass theocracy and blow up infidels just to get laid.


A simpler and perhaps more accurate way to put it might be to simply call them partners!


Meeting your mate that way would be…


…a cage match

I know, I know, it’s the “WWE” now


Yes. We will be extinct in a decade or so.

Nothing forces you to get laid, or blow shit up. We don’t need to be put in a zoo. We don’t need breeding programs.

Look, dude, we are gonna grow old and die. We are not rock stars and we are not millionaires. Some people will love us, others won’t.

And in the end we all make delicious tomatoes.


@zfirphdn’s law.


I’d like to be a tomato one day. Photosynthesis, self-pollination… yeah I think I could be good at that.

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In my personal, though admittedly limited experience, someone into you will make it known fairly quickly. Either there is a romantic connection or not.

I think in general it is very rare for someone to “wake up” and realize “Oh hey, the person I wanted was right there the whole time.” Your best bet for something like that to happen is to meet again later in life when both of you have changed and are able to rediscover each other and then perhaps a romantic spark picks up.

But personally I have never been with someone who didn’t want to get frisky after a first date. I have been around people who I went out with them or did things with, but it was clear that nothing was going to go anywhere. Any relationship that went past the first date had very clear indicators.

Of course when you are younger there can be a lot of pining and wanting someone through everyday interaction - and perhaps they too are interested but won’t make a move either. But most of the time, one person will make the first move, and by your early 20s you should be beyond that phase and if you want someone romantically you should just make it clear and move on if they say no.

I planted Mortgage Lifter with some fish fertilizer this year. Ho. My. Gawd. Too many to use or can.


I know it doesn’t feel like it, but it does. It really does.

The thing that worked for me, that made me happier than I’ve ever been in my life is finding out how to be comfortable with myself. I was able to love myself. Not in a narcissistic or conceted way, but in a caring self-understanding and self-realizing way. I introspected, a lot. I found things that I didn’t like, that I felt were making me a not as good person. Hell, I could have gone down the “MGTOW” path at one point if I weren’t careful; but I didn’t. Because I cared about myself and wanted to improve.

But for me it all happened after one of the biggest rejections of my life. But I really liked this girl I knew and I wanted to go out with her. I was super awkward and really bad at sociable (still am for the most part, but I’m okay with it) and it took me a while and a lot to be able to ask her out. I was rejected and it crushed me. I was hit hard and it took me a while to get out of that slump, but coming out of it I realized that “hey, maybe this isn’t the greatest way of going about things. I’m not happy; what can I do to make myself happy?”

I looked inside myself at that point, to try and find out what I wanted out of life. Did I really want what society tells me I want? The whole marriage thing, the settle down in the burbs and shit? And I realized “kind of, but maybe not like it’s portrayed. And if I can’t get that, what then? Well, I’ll start making my life about being a better, more kind person and being happier about myself.”

It took me a while, a good long while to come to terms with this. To become comfortable with who I am, and to change parts of myself that I’m not comfortable with. Some parts, the social awkwardness that comes from severe social anxiety won’t go away ever; even if I get more help with it and medication (it’s currently under enough control that I’m at a comfortable level, if it gets worse I’ll be going to a therapist about it), but that’s okay. That’s a part of me. I can still be a caring person, an empathetic person, a kinder person and a more helpful person with this, so it’s okay. I also learned to embrace my weird, to love the parts of myself that make me different from everyone else and to enjoy them and celebrate them. These things helped me to be happy; maybe they can do the same for you. Just remember that it’s okay to be alone. It’s okay to be you.

The thing that makes the asking out and the social things hard is anxiety. Talk to someone about this. I know there’s a big stigma about seeking help with these things, but it helps, it will help you be happier. I promise. It won’t be easy. It won’t be instant. It will take work. You may have to go through a dozen therapists to find one who works for you (been there). But it will help. Getting those skills to help you work through anxiety will help you to to become a happier person.

Also, don’t take this as a dig at you; don’t think that you’re broken because you’re this way. It sounds like you’ve got some of the same social anxieties I have. Take it this way: you can defeat it. It may be hard, but you can.


That’s one possible future, if you let it happen that way. I can tell you, though, that I’ve broken out of that vicious circle. Twice.

The first time, I broke out because someone actually said “yes” for once. That was enough to keep me out of that circle for a long time, even though it was years between that “yes” and the next.

The second time, I broke out of the circle before the next “yes.” How I did that: I sat down and looked at the person who I wanted to be, and compared it to the person that I was. I have to admit, the comparison wasn’t flattering, but I could see that, without really trying, the core of that person who I wanted to be was there. I was mostly kind, pretty smart, had a few talents, a decent job, and was saving up to buy a house. Imagine what I could do if I did put in a little work.

I then tried to quantify who I wanted to be, and what I wanted to do. As to the “who,” I used to be a Boy Scout, and while I had fallen pretty far from where I was since I was last a Scout, I remembered the Law: “A Scout is helpful and trustworthy, kind and cheerful, considerate and clean, and wise in the use of all resources.” That’s who I wanted to be, and while I was managing the first three, but the others all needed work, so I endeavoured to work on them.

As for what I wanted to do: I love singing, reading, writing, and skiing, above all other things, so I decided to cut the stuff I didn’t like and devote more of my free time to those.

As I started to grow towards the kind of person I wanted to be, and to do the things I enjoyed doing, I felt myself, every way (okay, most days) becoming better. I wasn’t growing closer to someone else’s version of a perfect person, but I was becoming, slowly, a better version of myself. Maybe one day, I’ll be the best possible version of myself; until then, I’ll have to keep striving.

That was what pulled me out of the vicious circle the second time.

And, you know what? After my last relationship, I fell into a rut for the third time. Or maybe I was in that rut while I was still in that relationship. I don’t know. However, I followed the same philosophy when that relationship was over, becoming a better version of myself again, and sure enough, I found myself hauling my own ass out of that rut and back on track again.

So, three weeks ago, I meet another girl, and ask her out. She says, “No, I have a boyfriend.” It hurts, sure, but you know what? I’m awesome. I’m a fantastic singer, a decent actor, a Ski Patroller, a Scouter, (almost) a novelist, I’ve cleaned up my appearance so I look great, and, by all accounts, people think I’m a great guy. She’s missing out. There’s someone out there just as great for me, or better, and I’ll find her, because I’m awesome in most of the ways that I want to be awesome, and I’m working on the others, and that’s all that really matters.

So, if you want to get out of the rut, decide, if you were to be the most awesome version of yourself, who would that be? Then, tomorrow, be more like that person than you are today. And the next day, do the same thing. There will be backslides, but just the effort and the slow progress will be enough to get you out of the rut, and then the vicious circle of habit won’t be working against you, it’ll be working for you.

It worked for me. And, worst case scenario: you’ll still be lonely, but you’ll have better company in your solitude.