Continuing the discussion from Red Pill, Blue Pill: if Dr Seuss wrote about Men's Rights Advocates:
Yay!! Give me some internet fistbump my hoopy frood, @popobawa4u.
Dismissing romantic love as being a sketchy ideal only brings other problems to the foreground. If all sexual relationships are ultimately just between friends, then does one, and how does one, determine which friendships have sexual components and which do not?
17 years ago me and my best friend took a vow both ceremonially and legally that our friendship would be mutually, and exclusively sexual. Over the course of time this changed–not the exclusivity till recently–but we grew and changed.
We are still best friends, but she needs things I can’t give her. Other dudes can. And I can no longer give… Err… What I gave. So our pact, at least emotionally, has been broken. Legally, well we will see how the next couple years play out.
What I am trying to say is this: if you commit, commit. Do what you say you are going to do. If you said the wrong thing, own up. If your organs fail and that’s a deal breaker for your SO, own up. If you make promises, follow through. If you can’t, negotiate something equitable.
This goes for dating, marriage, and friendship.
Gawd, that was one helluva hard thing to write
Hard to read, too. Hang in there.
I agree, these were intended to work as functional social protocol. But obviously, the less people related to the traditions these came from, the less useful they have tended to be. Once people loosen it up and make it more casual, it becomes freer, but not so much a protocol anymore.
All such systems of courtship I have encountered tend to carry a lot of baggage which is offensive to me. Such as sexism, and gender roles. As well as religious/cultural edicts such as forced gifts, monogamy, etc. I hate the notion of dating being merely another form of consumerism. My personal outlook on it is rather tribal - that people get together spontaneously and not worry about it very much. Sex can be just as much a way to meet people as it can be the converse. But when those around me do not share this outlook, it isn’t much to go on. It worked great for me when I lived in a city amongst bohemians, but now that I am a divorcee in some lame suburbs it is useless.
Oh it certainly blows. And it isn’t gender specific, which is what makes me have a Tick every time someone brings up men’s rights.
Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone could give each other a friendly smooch or a firm handshake without ‘signalling’ something?
That’s why I embrace and cup dudes butts while hugging and arm wrestling women (they usually win, I need to hit crossfit).
Well, sure. And I always get knocked down for this…
- If my partner has nookie and doesn’t tell me, I can get diseases I don’t want.
- If my partner has nookie and doesn’t tell me, I could raise a child (that I loved) for reasons unclear.
- if my partner tells me, since it has been more than ten years in Oregon, I owe 50% for the rest of my life.
Dating is hard. Committed relationships are brutal. If you can find a Bohemian lifestyle that works, that is fantastic.
The rest of us deal with, “well I said, but I thought you said, and didn’t you mean” shenanigans.
(I honestly hope you find a good person, you are a kind, gentle, introspective person)
You and I would not get along in person.
I do not like making physical contact with people. It’s not a germ thing; it’s a personal space thing. I need to be in control of my personal space. I can suppress the problems I have with that, as long as I know and accept what’s going to happen, because then I’m still in control. So handshakes are fine, hugs are usually a bit uncomfortable but tolerable, and incidental contact is pretty much unavoidable, so I deal with it.
But if someone touches me in a familiar way that I did not signal my acceptance for, and especially if I don’t see it coming (for instance, someone walking by my desk and deciding I need a shoulder rub, or someone goosing me when I had only prepared myself for a hug)… I would probably quietly hate that person for a very, very long time.
If it is any consolation I have… (Thinks about it)… Five friends. Well, maybe seven.
And I totes understand. It takes a long time and a lot of trust.
I’d never come within meter of you if I hadn’t know you for a year.
Regardless: you sound like a kind, standup person. Your honesty and forthcoming attitude are pluses. And if you are like you are online IRL then I give the Japhroaig guarantee you will be happy.
BTW those are literally the worst. I would only do that to a best friend as a prank, and then apologize.
Though you can make it funnier when you know the shoulder rubber is uncomfortable and then really get into it.
Oh, shoulder rubs, done properly, can be awesome. I give them to myself all of the time. Especially after a day I’ve spent staring at a computer screen? Better than caffeine.
But there’s three caveats here: I know how to give myself a good shoulder rub, I am expecting to get a shoulder rub from myself, and I like and trust myself enough to accept a shoulder rub from myself. If any of those are not the case, you’re not going to relieve the tension in my upper back and neck, you’re going to make it worse.
Unfortunately, I’m about the only person I know that falls into both the first and third categories, so I don’t get many good shoulder rubs. However, don’t knock them: like so many things in life, they can be horrible done poorly, but life-alteringly good done well.
I’ve been up for too many hours, so I’m gonna repeat myself a third time.
You sound like a hoopy frood.
How many arms do you have?
I’d wear one, if I were you. Who knows where those hands have been?
Here’s how I picture Japh serving drinks:
This terrifies me. In a lot of ways. There was a point where I learned more about family law than I ever wanted to, and I realized that being married entails a lot of aggravation if and when things end. My heart goes out to you. Fortunately, I still have time and distance to make that decision for myself.
Of course my secret shame is the fact that I’ve never been able to commit wholly and successfully to anything in my life. I don’t think it’s fair to not fix that before trying to commit to another person. Which, from another direction, is what you’re saying.
This topic has weird synchronicity with things I’ve been thinking about lately.
That is very hard. I can understand why someone might feel that way and it’s good that you were able to talk about it rather than it getting more ugly, but this is kind of exactly why marriage vows talk about “in sickness and health, for richer or poorer”. On the other hand, there’s a big difference between sexually exclusive relationships and exclusively sexual ones, so your vows may have been different. Well done in any case for being honest with each other and taking it so well.
But getting back to the dating part, you have to have confidence. Fake confidence works just fine. For example, I posted a video of me getting on stage and playing hurdy gurdy quite badly. Bit afterwards every single person there approached me. And you think I wasn’t terrified?
So many things the “good guys” value are exceptionally important. But to use an analogy, being a good listener, a good cook, caring, compassionate are the foundation, structural supports, plumbing, and electrical. You can’t neglect the decorative gargoyles, stained glass, and enormous pipe organ (that’s a weird analogy…)
Nothing wrong with my pipe organ.
I’m a fantastic singer, and will often burst out into song in public.
Wait, what did you think I meant?
Something something roses on my piano and tulips on my… Oh nevermind.