Wait, what? If everyone lady I know has had this experience, the one I’m talking about having had happen to me, how does that not match up with reality? Doesn’t that confirm it?
2 Likes
You haven’t truly been catwinned until Hitler Cat releases the gas…
3 Likes
No, because they might not be, in every circumstance, accurately divining the intentions of the other person. It’s easy to be dismissive and generalise that everyone is an asshole - and it’s hard to expect everyone to analyse these situations rationally and free from emotional distortion, but sometimes a person might be surprised to find out that they’re actually the asshole.
FFS, I don’t. Didn’t you read the original post? @Missy_Pants responded to my question with an alternate question, which I offered an answer for just to be helpful instead of evasive. But I stated right there, in what you quoted, that it was only a guess.
The topic seems to be about, among other things, how people make assumptions about the state of their relationships. I have explicitly stated for the Xth flipping time now that what interests me is how people reconcile what @Missy_Pants refers to as “platonic love” versus “romantic love”. Are they on a continuum where people develop from one to another? Or are they completely different kinds of relationships? I honestly don’t know.
What I said (again) is that it sounds probable that people would start with something like friendship, which might then develop into something deeper. Otherwise, how/why would somebody be in a romantic relationship with somebody they hadn’t known before? Do you understand how I am modelling this concept? What do you think of it?
Neither, they are interrelated and overlap, how much varies greatly based on the situation and people involved. Some people don’t even like people they have strong romantic feelings for. I don’t personally understand it but I’ve observed it. Some people have very deep connections with no romantic feeling.
Feelings of friendship can be weak or strong. Romantic feeling can be weak or strong. Usually people feel some friendship for lovers but it is easy to have no romantic feeling for a friend you care more about than another friend who is also a lover.
7 Likes
I think you don’t understand human interaction very well, so you don’t understand how friendship and romantic/sexual love could be entirely separate and not on a linear timeline.
You say:
That’s the assumption I’m challenging you on. Many people develop romantic and/or sexual feelings towards someone precisely because they don’t know each other very well. Over time, they may find the growing friendship between them intensifies and strengthens the physical connection. Or, they may find that the more they get to know each other, the more obvious it is that they don’t really like each other as people.
Meanwhile, it certainly does happen that one or more people in a friendship wake up one day and realize that they have romantic feelings as well. How that plays out has to do with whether or not everyone involved is on the same page, and how honest they are with each other.
But there’s another path, which has been talked about above, in which (usually) a man will pretend to be in a friendship with (usually) a woman in the hopes that one day she’ll want to have sex with him. That’s not a real friendship. That would certainly qualify as being “superficial”.
Real friendship is a bona fide human relationship between people who like, support, and respect each other. It can be situational, such as work friends you do still like but find less and less time to be with if you move to a different job, or it can be as close or closer than siblings.
7 Likes
I don’t think I’m doing that?
And I don’t think I’m the asshole?
But who knows, maybe I’m in the question thread and don’t know it?
2 Likes
I’m wasn’t suggesting you were, just that maybe people should treat other people more charitably and not always assume the worst just because they do something you don’t like, they may have a very different reason for doing it than you think.
Having only 10 years of dust on my, ahem, lens, I’ll give it a shot. The friendzone phenomenon is a passive aggressive and explicitly post rejection dynamic.
The thinking pattern you describe is hopelessly complex for some of these people, its definitely about entitlement, but I don’t think that such a basic need as sex is ever acknowledged at a conscious level. Therefore they desire in a very superficial manner. Whatever the culture shows as a marker of identity, they emulate. When their most basic human needs go unmet, we get rage.
It was pointed out to me by a very wise friend that a man’s worst fear is being useless. I think this goes a long way to explaining how the ennui of affluent white males can turn toxic.
Its also interesting how “the friendzone” is now perceived to be the place you find yourself in after rejection, this surely limits the range of acceptable responses in a given culture.
I’ll just note that just about everything you mention here has been thought of as traditionally male, from baking-theatre, to emotionally fulfilling art has been male dominated. the perception that these are not manly roles is artificial, that you may imagine that other people would think of them as anything less than manly is a preoccupation with perception, not reality.
5 Likes
It took me a very long time to “get” that. I remember times when I was young and dumb, where I’d been denied after asking, then spent the rest of our “friendship” thinking “no means maybe.” and basically pissing them off until they were no longer my friend.
I think this song does a great job summing up the thing that young guys so often don’t get when someone they’re interested in says “no”. Taking it easy on young guys is a bad thing. It leaves ambiguity that lets them rationalize their poor behavior:
8 Likes
That would also make the nature of the friendship beforehand a lot less relevant than the response to rejection.
Part of this talk about friendship for ulterior motives reminds me of advice about meeting women: get to know them as a friend first, learn to listen, look out for their needs etc. You can imagine guys taking that in a very literal way and getting upset when the equation gave the wrong answer. Girls want friendship and attention and will then be happy to have a romantic relationship; I’m also happy with that deal. I will be the best friend. I’ll be everything she wants me to be.
Aside from not wanting a doormat as a boyfriend, it’s probably understandable if women don’t feel flattered that their friend considers themselves to be a good person and the friendship to be a selfless gift to her (or at least his part of a quid pro quo arrangement).
2 Likes
Just saw this…
Well, there is this thing called “sexual attraction” which, in my personal experience, has little to do with whether you can be friends with someone. I didn’t go hit on my wife because I thought she was the greatest human being I’d ever met and I wanted to be friends with her forever. I went and chatted her up (at a wedding even!) because she was hot. I then saw her at another social gather a week or so later and we chatted again. Either that time or at a third social event (I forget), I asked her out to coffee. Then I started to get to no her really. That isn’t what drew me to her in the first place because I didn’t even know her when we met. She was a friend of a lover of mine’s and, as it turned out, part of a larger circle of people I knew.
This has been the case for the vast majority of women I’ve dated. We meet in a social setting. I’m attracted. They’re attracted (or else they wouldn’t keep talking to me and wind up going out with me). We chat. We flirt. It eventually progresses to us meeting on our own and, later on, becoming a regular thing.
I don’t think I’ve ever dated a woman (and I haven’t dated men) that I was friend with first. If I knew them at all, it was a superficial friend of friend thing in college or some social group. This is why I tell my friends who are having a hard time dating to just go be social, do activities with friends, etc. You may meet someone through them if you’re lookin’ for love. At the very least, you’ll be social though.
That said, I am friends with all but one or two of my exes after all these years and, in fact, most of my female friends are ex-girlfriends/whatevers but the friendship came after the attraction and pursuit.
6 Likes
Duuuude! I can totally imagine this. Too bad it’s 11:30 pm or I would totally write this right now
1 Like
That sounds to me more like a country music song.
1 Like
IMO, the concept of “friendzoning” in modern parlance comes from the dudes who think if they put enough “kindness” tokens in the woman, sex happens.
12 Likes
Indeed, that is, in my opinion, a perfect summary.
Great .jpg btw!
2 Likes
To add to what I said before, I think this is a gendered thing, but partly because sex is seen as the thing that men want, while friendship, affection, commitment etc. are seen as the things that women want. If we (not you, just people in general) could get out of our stereotyped view of the genders, we could see that this is not the case. A few decades ago the stereotype was similar for women, just further along the friendship > dating > dating with sex > marriage line. Men weren’t interested in committing and only wanted to casually date. Even giving in to what they wanted and having sex wouldn’t persuade them. Why won’t they marry me/have kids? I’ve been such a good girlfriend to them.
With more equality and opportunity, people are finding that women aren’t always looking for a relationship in the order friendship > marriage, and men aren’t always looking for sex as the primary motivation for a romantic relationship. Having some self confidence and being up front about the terms that you expect from the relationship allows the other person to be clear about what they want. Being the weak silent type just breeds unnecessary bitterness. If you’re not comfortable with the relationship you have right now given the amount you’re investing in it, it’s OK to discuss it and be prepared to leave it if you’re not satisfied.
3 Likes
Dude, you’ve been food-monkey-zoned.
7 Likes
Apparently, he’s really good at it too.
2 Likes
Yup. See all PUA/MRA/MGTOW/NiceGuys on the planet!
3 Likes
