Wow… that’s an absolutely twisted take on my point… Nowhere do I advocate for abandoning intellectual debate or for taking up arms (literally).
Where is the “intellectual debate” to be had in conspiracy theories? Where is the “intellectual debate” to be had on the eliminiationist rhetoric aimed at transfolks? Where is the “intellectual debate” to be had on white, Christian ethno-nationalist talking points? You’re not going to “debate” these people out of beliefs that bear no relation to reality at least for people who have gone all-in. They are committed to creating a fascist, white ethno-state. Debating the nazis did not help, because they just cleansed the Reichstag, and put their enemies who opposed genocide in prison.
And just WHAT that agenda is matters, is my point. At this point, they are pushing for the entire elimination of trans people, and they are coming for Jewish folks next, among others. Feel free to rationally debate that, but I’m more concerned about the welfare of people who are not white, straight, cisgendered, and non-Christian (or the “wrong” kind of Christian)…
But isn’t that the only two options? An Oxford debate and armed insurrection? /s
It’s not great that any politician or PAC is using zombie newspapers. However, as others above have noted, only one side is currently using them with great frequency to spread lies and disinformation and distortions of fact in service of an authoritarian cause.
That activity is what this story is about. Moreover, if you want to keep playing semantic games concerning the shifting definition of the word, that activity is baked right into the original and etymological concept of propaganda. During the Counter-Reformation of the 17th century, the RCC started the “Congregation for Propagating the Faith” in an attempt to maintain its stranglehold on European Christianity.
The American Independent Foundation mentioned in the article appears to be a pro-status-quo-democratic-party, anti-socialist organisation.
You and I have very different ideas of what the Left is. I remember having to pay for my genuinely left wing news with books of stamps that got donated to the Anarchist Black Cross.
I thought the debate in question was whether it was worth pointing out that propaganda disguised as news was not isolated to the Right wing. I’m not talking about debating the points made in “The Arizona Catholic Tribune”. I agree, that’s rather pointless.
Re-reading my linked comment from way back, I agree there are more alternatives to debate than taking up arms. I guess I jumped to that conclusion after reading “an intellectual debate, rather than a lethal threat”.
That topic wasn’t the “debate” in question until you introduced it.
And no, it’s not “worth pointing out that propaganda disguised as news was not isolated to the Right wing,” because in the context of the original post, the left wing is not sending out such distorted, lying, hateful, violence-promoting “propaganda.”
And I never suggested otherwise, so don’t appreciate you putting those words in my mouth to that effect.
The content matters here. Plus rushing to push a talking point that “both sides” use propaganda is not a particularly novel point anyways. We’re all aware that various propaganda tools are used by a variety of political actors across the discourse. That’s not news, that’s how it’s been across the mass mediated era. I suspect that most of us are well-aware of this fact.
It’s part of it, for sure, but there has also been a decades-long campaign to infiltrate conservative politics from white supremacist and Christian dominionist groups. Again, I’d argue that the format is relatively common across political parties, but the content are pulled from the right wing, white power underground.
Not to distract/derail this thread, but so-called zombie publications have come in many forms… sometimes literally. One example poses as a federal/state government document (most of the time just a pre-paid postcard, with IRS-like official looking large bold font publication number) offering to send the receiver otherwise easily obtained info from a government website – or obtained simply by googling. The catch is that one would have to fill in the postcard with information that, at most, would not just identify you as an easy mark, but also makes it easier for you to be scammed later in more profound ways, or at least provide the sender info that could be sold to others.
One example we received was strangely obtuse, so much so that it prompted us to drill down to its rotten core. The postcard came from a solar panel seller.
Well, the third option is the enormous middle ground that exists inside your false dichotomy there.
It matters how we frame these things. People are reacting to your hint of both-sides-ism because any amount of that really is destructive right now. A big part of how we got here is mainstream media (and intellectual debaters) not taking the fascists seriously enough until it was too late. This is part of the historical pattern of fascism as well. The pundits and newspapers leading up to Nazi Germany were full of hemming and hawing about how maybe we should give this Hitler guy a chance because we don’t want to shut down intellectual debate.
The thing is, there comes a point where everyone has to say, “No! Those ideas are wrong and bad and have no place here, unequivocally”. If we, as a society, don’t do that, their toxic ideas spread and get ever harder to crush.
Fascism can never be eliminated, only marginalized. When it sticks its ugly head out of the hole again, we must be firm in whacking it back down again. If it gets an arm or a leg out of that hole, it may take a war to get it back in.
Today I received the Grand Canyon Times in Gilbert, AZ. It has the same tagline and right-leaning stories as the Arizona Catholic Tribune. Never saw this one before, but have heard of it. Great for lining the bottom of hamster and bird cages, but little else.
