I’ve checked the math and I am saving money. It works out roughly like this. Let’s say I go through a pound of coffee a week. If I’m not roasting, I’m spending $12 a pound on decent coffee, but green beans cost me $8 a pound (and I’m going to ignore weight loss from chaff and degassing).
Store-bought coffee costs me $624 a year and home-roasted coffee costs me $416. At that rate, a $200 roaster pays for itself in a year and a $500 roaster pays for itself in less than three years. (My roaster was somewhere in the middle of that range.)
Obviously, your numbers are going to vary depending on the quality of the green beans you use (and the quantity–I almost always buy in bulk) and the price of the coffee you would otherwise buy.
I’d save even more money by not drinking coffee, but what’s the fun in that?
Degassing isn’t really an issue. You just roast a fresh batch day or two or even four depending on your preference before you run out of your last batch. On the rare occasions when I’m drinking coffee I’ve just roasted, I make sure to stir the grounds thoroughly. Typically the coffee is fine after a day or two anyway.
Home roasters give a much more even roast than the skillet will. They aren’t that expensive (although there is a fairly wide range of prices), and I did the math above to show that at least they’re saving me money over what I would otherwise spend on coffee over the long run.
Sweet Marias green beans go as low as about $6/lb if you buy a lot. Peets is $16/lb.
I’ve used an air popcorn maker, it’s ok but roasts a bit too fast and it’s easy to overdo it. I’ve had an iRoast for many years that does a very nice job. I think it was about $150 but that was a looong time ago.
Anyway- with a $10/lb difference, it’s definitely possible to save money. And having ultra fresh beans every time is no small thing; green beans stay good for a long time.
That might be, but that doesn’t mean that’s best practice for optimal taste - there are a lot of not-particularly-good traditions in the world, after all. James Hoffman, as always when it comes to coffee, has a good summary:
(link is when he starts to summarize, though the whole video is worth watching)
It’s especially worth pointing out that darker roasts (like Turkish coffee, at least - I have no idea how Ethiopian coffee is prepared) need to rest shorter, but they still need a couple of days to degas properly.
There’s also a question to be raised of whether traditions concerning darker roasts in warmer climates (such as around the Mediterranean) might prioritize freshness simply because the warmer climate makes the coffee go stale faster - darker roasts are more porous and have more oils exposed to air, and as with all oxidation processes, heat tends to accelerate this. I have no idea whether this is true, but at least that’s one factor that might have led to the emergence of traditions preferring freshness above all else.
I’d say saying “it’s like cooking” is a gross oversimplification. Sure, there are forms of cooking that also require complex equipment and are very hard to control - real barbecue, for example, or making high quality pastries. The problem with that comparison is that most cooking is flexible, adaptable, easily accessible, and affordable. Hacking cheap workarounds like yours is always possible, but again, that’s something that can’t be done for anything that’s a necessity - like cooking generally is.
You’re twisting my response into the exact opposite of what it is. I’m not critiquing trying this out. I’m saying that promoting it as if it’s something that can feasibly be done with good results is grossly unrealistic and quite misleading. That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth trying as a DIY project - I can imagine it would be really interesting, and as you say, it would be really rewarding if the results turned out even remotely tasty. But there’s a vast gap between saying “if you have some time, money and green coffee to (potentially) waste, this could be a cool project (and if you’re lukcky it might even taste good)” and “you can roast your own delicious coffee with just a cast-iron pan”. Nothing I’ve said comes even remotely close to saying you can’t take pride in doing this yourself, or be happy with the results - I’m just advocating for some realistic expectations for both effort and results.
IMO, any DIY project should be approach with a hope of success, but an expectation of failure. That’s what makes non-failure exhilarating, and what makes doing things like this a rewarding endeavor. But once you start promoting minimal-effort DIY - like roasting coffee in a cast-iron pan - as something where you can expect even some moderate success, IMO you’re setting some very, very wrong expectations.
Oh, and I see great value in getting more materially involved in the processes, practices and objects that undergird all the quasi-magic that goes on in our daily lives, and I think this has immense value both materially and psychologically. But again, expectations need to be realistic, not “One easy hack to roast your own coffee at home for free!”
How long you need to degas depends on the roast, but a minimum of a couple of days is recommended. See the James Hoffman video above for a pretty comprehensive overview.
I agree that it generally isn’t an issue (other than a cursory look at the roasting date for the beans I buy I never really care - no bag lasts longer than 3-4 days anyhow), I was just bringing it up as both the video and people here seemed to be under the impression that brewing as close to roasting as possible was a good idea, which … well, it isn’t unless you want an undertone of gone-flat sparkling water (i.e. dissolved carbonic acid) in your coffee. Or if you’re under the mistaken impression that more crema = better espresso, I guess. That was why I brought it up - just to dispel the notion that “freshness” for coffee is a linear graph. Obviously if you’ve got a relatively hands-off home roasting setup that can brew a sufficient amount for a few days then it’s entirely feasible to roast ahead of time for more than sufficient degassing.
As for home roasters being better than a skillet I don’t doubt that at all - I just don’t see the value of the time expenditure compared to buying great coffee from a nearby specialty roaster. But then I really don’t need more hobbies either (nor is my apartment big enough for a roaster!). If you’re looking for a way of getting more tangibly involved in coffee, no doubt that’s a good approach - just with a sensible expectation that mastering making anything good is going to take a while.
Also, I would be worried about getting access to high quality beans - though living in Sweden that’s probably quite different from parts of the world closer to good coffee growing climate zones. That’s an advantage of scale that no home roaster can ever really overcome outside of group buys (or possibly buying beans off a local roaster, if they’re willing to sell them to you). That for me is reason to entirely dismiss roasting personally, as I’m too picky about my coffee to accept whatever green coffee might be available to me - there’s always going to be better access to high quality roasted beans than green coffee, after all.
Depends on roast, bean, brewing style, and target flavor profile. As I mentioned above, I do very little home roasting nowadays, but I used to very much enjoy coffee brewed with some of the local beans fresh out of the roaster.
I gather from your posts that you do not home-roast yourself. It seem odd then that you’re advising people who actually do that what they’re doing can’t be any good.
It seems you didn’t read my last post? Pretty much asked and answered. I did say resting depends on the roast level too. Brewing style? Not really - the need to rest espresso beans less has nothing to do with brewing, but comes from them typically being a much darker roast (and thus being more porous, degassing faster). Other brew techniques might vary in how much of a nuisance poorly degassed coffee is (extreme blooming making a mess, etc.), but other than that the results on flavor are essentially the same - you have the same level of carbonic acid dissolved in the resulting brew. Denser beans obviously need more time - hence why I gave a range, and not a single number. As for desired flavor profile affecting resting … how? I guess if the flavor profile you’re aiming for includes either notes of carbonic acid or oxidized fats that would indeed necessitate shorter or longer resting periods, but other than that? Any given roast of any given bean will obviously taste its best at some specific point, but that’s just how coffee ages. That is in no way an argument for not letting it degas properly first.
As for the “don’t knock it if you haven’t tried it” line? Please. Seriously. You probably don’t see it yourself, but bringing that up in that way is effectively just derailing the discussion. Just because I haven’t done home roasting doesn’t mean I have no clue what I’m talking about - you literally have zero basis on which to make that assumption. And besides, I’m basing what I’m saying far less on my own experience and training as a barista (which is about a decade ago at this point) but rather the sensible expert voices in the field. James Hoffman is definitely one of them, managing to be extremely knowledgeable, sensibly non-snobbish, and great at communicating his knowledge in wasy that are adaptable to different situations. I definitely trust a voice like his far more than any number of home roasters who swear that they can get great results with little effort and cheaply - as literally every term in that (what are “great results”? what constitutes “little effort”? what is “cheap” to you?) has a massive range of variability built in.
I’ve been plenty clear that I have no problem with people roasting their own coffee, nor do I have a problem with DIY approaches - they can be really cool, innovative, creative, and can spark great new ideas. My problem lies with the framing, presentation and rhetoric used here.
I didn’t say don’t knock home roasting if you haven’t tried it; you are ‘knocking’ the people who have actual experience of doing this, saying they are “misleading” people by “promoting it as if it’s something that can feasibly be done with good results”. In fact, there is no question, zero, none, that with an inexpensive dedicated home roasting device the average person can get excellent and consistent results with very modest effort.
Now, I wouldn’t personally include a cast iron skillet here as “dedicated home roasting device”, though roasting in a skillet was the norm in the US until the mid-late 1800s (the first commercial roaster was imported into the US in 1833).
W/r to brewing fresh out of the roaster: at the shop where you work, do the people who roast the coffee not cup within a few hours of roasting? This is the practice of most people I know when comparing beans and blends or crafting a roasting profile. (I’ve been friendly with coffee people – hobbyists and professional – for decades, and have cupped with the latter. There is no uniformity of thought about pretty much anything coffee-related, even among seasoned professionals.)
You mention espresso beans – I agree, you can’t really use just-roasted beans for espresso; the gas does interfere with the extraction in that case, though you can mitigate that somewhat by roasting extremely dark. You can also simply grind a few hours before brewing (cf Figure 6.4 in Illy’s book).
I’m interested in the use of a bread maker for this. I have one that doesn’t get a lot of use, and I own heat guns. Small batch size is definitely a problem with the air popper.
Are the “mods” you mention difficult? Do they make the machine incapable of bread making?
You’re misreading my posts here though. My criticisms have been directed at the original post here, not the people sharing their experiences. When I say I don’t understand people wanting to roast at home, that’s with the perspective of me seeing coffee first and foremost as an enjoyable drink, and while I’ve said that I can understand a desire to get to know more of the materialities and processes behind making this possible, I’ve also argued for why this goes way past tipping the scales of impracticality. This is obviously my opinion, and you’re very welcome to disagree - but that brings us back to my objections with the original post here, which effectively promotes “one easy trick to roast gourmet coffee at home” - both disregarding the skill and knowledge involved in this craft, the temporal and financial costs of doing this, and not least the vast differences in access to beans, equipment, time, money, etc.
As I’ve repeated several times above: I would have no problem with this whatsoever if it was presented as “hey, look, as long as your expectations are low, this can be a fun thing to try (if you can afford it)”. But selling it as something easy, and strongly implying that good results are realistically achievable? That’s pure BS.
That’s what I’m arguing for here, not that nobody should ever try home roasting. Heck, if you’re in the privileged position of having the necessary combination of time, money, space, tools, skills, and access to green coffee to do this yourself? Go for it! It’s probably really cool, and as with other skill-developing DIY crafts - whether that’s cooking, potterymaking, painting, car restoration, furniture making, whatever- I imagine it’s really rewarding. But that’s miles apart from pitching “hey, look how easy roasting your own coffee in a cast-iron pan is!” And if you are in that position, I obviously have problem with promoting the hobby - but again, doing so needs to include some care for the level of effort required, even if that effort (whether that’s buying a home roaster, hacking a popcorn maker or bread maker, or something else) is trivial to you at the current time. Anything else is just misleading, no matter the intention, and just shows a blindness to your own privilege.
As for the specifics of your last post:
What is “very modest effort” and what is an “inexpensive dedicated home roasting device” are very different things to different people.
I don’t think either of us would have liked early 1800s coffee, so … I don’t see the point?
You’re conflating cupping with regular drinking. Any reasonably skilled cupper will know how poorly degassed coffee tastes and can attempt to account for that when cupping. Asking something similar of someone drinking coffee because they want to drink coffee is rather ridiculous. Thus, coffee for drinking needs to rest. Most of us are not professional cuppers in training.
I entirely agree that there is no uniformity of thought on anything regarding pretty much anything pertaining to human sensory experience. There are no doubt people out there who like the subtle sour flavor of poorly degassed coffee. The existence of a broad range of preferences does not make general recommendations impossible.
You’re right that extreme dark roasts degas faster as the beans become more porous, but at that point you’re also roasting away the flavor of the coffee (and then some), so by then you can’t care much about the resulting flavor anyhow. Grinding beforehand is also a possibility, though depending on the conditions the coffee is kept in that can also lead to rapid oxidisation or unpleasant external aromas setting in, so it needs some care. Putting the coffee under a vacuum can also accelerate degassing, as can storing it in a hot place (but that again accelerates oxidation). There are always tricks and workarounds that can be done. But that doesn’t affect general recommendations for resting.
Yes, it destroys the bread-maker. Unless you know more about electronics than I do (which isn’t that difficult). Or, if you have a bread-maker that just has a “knead” mode that allows you to just run the paddle without the other function(s), that is all you are trying to accomplish with the mods I mentioned.
That’s a pretty odd take. @jlw simply shared a link to something he thought was cool, combining two things he likes, coffee and cast iron skillets. That’s not baiting clicks or anything near it; posting about cool stuff is pretty much the raison d’etre for BoingBoing.
And you’ve continued to repeat – it is right there in your posts – that people can’t expect good results from home roasting, even after people who have actually done it say otherwise.
What is “very modest effort” and what is an “inexpensive dedicated home roasting device” are very different things to different people.
It is about as hard as popping corn: you put the green beans into the roaster, wait for first crack, count some number of seconds (depending on prior experience with the bean and the roast you want), then dump the beans out on a rack to cool. Small fluid bed roasters start at around $200 new, but a $5 thrift store hot air corn popper works almost as well (and just as easily) except for capacity, as does a heat gun and a deep bowl.
I don’t think either of us would have liked early 1800s coffee, so … I don’t see the point?
I don’t know that this is true. The point is that commercial roasting was introduced, relatively recently, as a convenience, like canned beans. It was and is a luxury, especially if you buy beans from a modern, nth-wave coffee shop or specialty roaster. When I buy roasted beans from such a shop I do so because I can afford to pay for that convenience. (Also because I mainly use blends for espresso, and I can’t blend as well as some roasters.) As others have noted, buying green is far cheaper than buying roasted (it also stores much longer!), and as several of us have noted from actual experience, it is not hard and the results are good.
Teenaged me would disagree. I would deliberately walk to school past my local coffee roaster when I had the time. It’s one of the few good memories I have from that period of my life.
Need is almost certainly too strong a word without context. James Hoffman (posted in another reply) is a great resource, and note that in his video that he repeatedly mentioned that degassing is important relative to brew method along with other factors. He mostly focused on filter coffee and espresso, because these two methods have larger impacts from not degassing a bean before it’s used. He doesn’t mention much about immersion brewing because it is less impacted by not degassing.
That said don’t forget that many traditions are born out of necessity and are not always the best way with modern tools. Green coffee beans last much longer than roasted beans, and the warmer or more humid the climate the faster roasted beans go stale. The practice of roasting just before use in a time before refrigeration and easy air tight storage make sense.
On the other hand much of the modern advances in roasting are focused on volume and consistency, often quality takes second place to those concerns. It’s easy to compare today’s coffee to the pre ground stale in the can coffee that way the norm in the US during the latter part of the last century and say ‘modern’ is better, but that is really just comparing ‘modern’ and ‘slightly more modern’ coffee.
And a final thought, a lot of current coffee culture is about chasseing diminishing returns. If we double the effort we put in we can get a 10% better cup. There are some simple guidelines that make a large difference but there is also many ideas that will provide very modest improvements that might not be worth the effort for every coffee drinker. (The popularity of Starbucks proves that for many convenience and consistency trumps quality.) There is definitely a toxic side of coffee culture obsessed with that perfect cup and if your not chasing that perfection your doing coffee wrong, and then there is a more accepting side that wants good coffee, but is willing to accept anyone no mater how they like there coffee.
